Jane Johnson is the Executive Director for the Florida Association for Centers For Independent Living (FACIL). Created from the 1973 Rehabilitation Act, there are now 15 centers of Independent Living throughout the state of Florida and nearly 500 across nationwide.

Jane joins us to talk about why Centers For Independent Living are important and why they matter. She shares examples about how people with disabilities can become advocates for systemic change and what is needed to navigate our current political landscape by allowing our values to guide us towards being the best version of ourselves for the greater good of the people we serve.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3PGOhkuVCTtzn6IfEmVcp7

SPEAKERS: Jane Johnson, Tony Delisle

Tony Delisle  00:00

United we stand and divided, we fall. January 7 2021, as we’re recording this episode that you’re about to hear the day after in DC when they were going to certify the election that the Capitol was breached. And so this is serendipity in a way, because our guests as somebody that is the executive director for the Florida Association for Centers for Independent Living. Her name is Jane Johnson. She works in Tallahassee, and works closely with legislators and other agency directors, to advocate for policies, and programs that really help to serve and meet the needs of people with disabilities. So in other words, this was a podcast that we already intended to talk about legislation and politics and how to push forward issues that are important to people with disabilities. And so it’s hard to ignore the time that we’re in especially less than 24 hours after this incident happened. And so I find it very timely. The purpose of this podcast is to really shed some light on what the Independent Living network is. Centers for Independent Living, are throughout the state of Florida, there’s 15 of them, and nearly 500 of them in the country. Centers for Independent Living were created from the 1973 Rehabilitation Act. And together are a network that provides services for people with disabilities all ages, and they’re free services to the people that we serve. In Florida, we have an association where the centers, nearly all centers are a member of the Florida Association for Centers for Independent Living, FACIL. And with this interview with Jane, she talks about why Centers for Independent Living are important, why they matter why FACIL matters, how people with disabilities can become advocates, not just for themselves, but for systemic change that they’re looking to see in our society. She talks about some of the hot button issues of the day that are out there. We also get into what is needed to navigate these political waters that were in. Very divisive times is certainly the events of yesterday, illuminate. So we talked about what are the values that we need to help us and guide us and be our compass to be the best versions of ourselves for the greater good of the people that we serve. When times are so divisive. And offending one another seems to be the disorder of the day. And then we talk about her vision for a better future, and talk about some of the things that are needed in order for us to be the best version of ourselves so that we can serve other people to the best of our abilities. Hope you enjoy this interview. And I want to leave you with a quote that peace is not the absence of conflict. Rather, it is our ability to resolve conflict through peaceful means. It comes from Ronald Reagan, when he was working to dismantle communism, bring down the wall that was in East Berlin. Very contentious times very difficult issues from people that really didn’t see eye to eye. And I think that is the order of the day. How can we resolve some of these conflicts and issues that we have through peaceful means. For me, I believe conversation is a very important part of this. And if we can’t communicate and have conversations with one another, then the alternatives are not as desirable nor diplomatic and often turned violent. So I think this is a very important time to hear a conversation like this to learn a little more about the legislative process, how to advocate and really how to have the values that are needed to solve some of the incredible issues and challenges that we face in our day to day. I hope you enjoy the podcast. And welcome back to another episode of The Independent Life. I am excited as I’ve always been in these first episodes because the first list of people that are coming onto the show are like my A-list of favorite people. Can’t wait to bring him in and talk to him and Jane, you’re certainly one of them. Bringing you in on the heels of a few others that are coming before you really shows the diversity that this high cast is aiming to achieve. So we just recently had a couple guests on from the University of Florida, and I believe your pedigree there Jane represents perhaps a Florida State University is that correct? FSU?

Jane Johnson  04:36

Actually no, I went to Georgetown University, but I have a daughter who went to Florida State and a daughter who went to Florida so I’m…

Tony Delisle  04:42

Oh, yeah. You’re you’re part of the tribe. Yeah. Yes, again. Yeah. So I would consider you part of the Seminole nation so and we had people from Gator Nation on and I just think that’s wonderful that we can have a diverse space where we invite such people during the conversation. That’s right. That’s right. So as executive director for the Florida Association for Centers for Independent Living, we’re going to be saying FACIL quite a bit in this conversation. And that’s what it stands for Florida Association Centers for Independent Living. You are the director of a board that has 15 other directors and centers throughout the state of Florida. So first off, you’re challenging, right there of having 15 directors, which you helped to serve and carry out our mission and, and desires and all these other kinds of things. I said, I think it really takes a strong person, have a high degree of character and fortitude, and flexibility and creativity and all these wonderful things. So I just want to first of all, acknowledge you for what you do for the Florida Association for Centers for Independent Living, and want to zoom out a little bit even from that and ask you, Jane, you know, why should people care about people with disabilities and issues that are related to having a disability?

Jane Johnson  06:03

Well, and I’ve heard you articulate this before, Tony, but and so I’ll repeat it, but everyone has a disability is going to have a disability or used to have a disability of some sort. So I, for one, we should care about people with disabilities, because we should care about ourselves. And because disability is so prevalent, and you know, we’re, I just, it’s hard to answer that question, because I can’t imagine a reason why you wouldn’t. It’s something that should be natural, instinctive, and part of living a full life, a full and balanced life, where we’re not completely self centered, but looking at the world around us, and trying to invite in and learn and learn from and live with people of all types. And that includes disability includes socioeconomic differences and racial and ethnic disparate differences. But to me, that’s the recipe for a good life and educated and informed life. So I just I can’t imagine why someone would be like, why should people drink water? Because you need to, I guess you could not drink water, but you’d have a pretty dry life, if you didn’t.

Tony Delisle  07:08

Beautifully, said, Jane. So why do centers for independent living matter? Like why should people with disabilities or even those without disabilities, you know, come to know or understand or even utilize Centers for Independent Living? What is our place there?

Jane Johnson  07:20

That question has become more difficult to answer as the state and federal governments have added additional programs on top of the infrastructure that was created, and sort of envisioned when the Center for Independent Living were established in federal law, but Center for Independent Living are the only organizations in the country that serve all disabilities, and all ages. They are designed to be a one door or No Wrong Door resource for people with disabilities. And they here in Florida, they’re designed to serve all 67 counties. So we have a statewide footprint that serves all people. And each Center for Independent Living looks different, because by design, they mirror the population of the communities where they’re located. So they are, they’re responsive, and they are, they’re local, they’re accessible. And that but in addition to the Center for Independent Living, there’s a whole host of different organizations that have been created over the years that also serve people with disabilities. But it’s there are different eligibility criteria. They’re different age groups that they serve, there’s just a lot of different accesses to entry, which I think creates confusion. So people should know about Centers for Independent Living, because if you have a disability, and you have a question, or you have a need, you can always go there and get your questions answered, you might be referred on to a specialist, but at least you know that you’re not going to pick up the phone and call the an organization that only serves one type of disability to be told you need to go somewhere else. So I think that that’s why everyone should know about Centers for Independent Living, because they should be the first place we go to. And ideally, I’d like to work on reducing the number of steps that people have to go through to to get the to the answer to get their needs met, or to connect with people that can provide a support that someone might need, because, and I know from my desk, because we’re the central office, I get a lot of calls from people who I’m the 24th person they’re calling trying to get a simple question answered, and they’ve called everyone and can’t find out where they can get that answer. So it’s really from a consumer standpoint, it makes a lot of sense to have Centers for Independent Living that are the sort of the universal place to go for all disabilities.

Tony Delisle  09:43

Yes, so all disabilities all ages. And for us to be that No Wrong Door approach to systemic navigation and getting the people the resources services they need is very important and well said that we are one of those entities that can really provide the Quick Access. There, as you mentioned there 67 counties in the state of Florida. And there’s a Center for Independent Living that is responsible for every one of those counties. So we have 15 of them in the state. And like you said, while we’re unique in the sense that we are tailored to meet the needs that are specific to the communities we serve, which is fantastic, because the diversity that is here in Florida, we also you know, have a very centralized service orientation to the five core services, independent living skills. I in our services, information, referral, advocacy, peer supports and transitions. So I love that in one sense, though, we’re unique. And in one sense, there’s something that really connects all of us together, we all have, who share the same spinal cord, for instance, but you know, their arms and legs and everything else may look a little different, based on you know, kind of the the people that were responsible for serving within our catchment area. So to take that now, 15 centers, most of which are members of the Florida Association for Centers for Independent Living facile. So we’re all members of this organization, you lead us as the executive director, who has an office there in Tallahassee at our state capitol, to talk to us then about well, why is it important to have a statewide collaboration between all the centers, and then have a kind of centralized command with you, there’s the home, Captain Jane, really helping to lead us and collaborate with us and really leverage, you know, everything that we’re trying to do, why does FACIL matter in terms of the Independent Living network?

Jane Johnson  11:30

Well, because independent living,  centers for independent living our service providers, they rely on federal and state funding, and any entity that relies on state and federal funding should have a presence at the Capitol, because that’s where the money comes from. And, you know, Centers for Independent Living are, and I was gonna go back to something we said earlier, because we are no wrong door resources. But we’re also unlike most disability serving organizations, sales aren’t providers necessary in the traditional sense of the word where there are monetary transactions taking place, and the organizations are making money off the volume of people they serve. CILs are people with disabilities, CILs are received by law. And in practice, it was at least 51% of the employees at a Center for Independent Living have to be people with disabilities. So these are the disability community that sales are the disability community, helping the disability community at large. So it’s it’s different they are they really, their mission is different, their, their bottom line is different, because their bottom line is human, where the bottom line of most provider organizations, obviously is money because that’s your mean, they have a fiduciary responsibility to their leadership. So that is a differentiator that I think makes the seals unique. But because you serve 67 counties, and there are only 15 of you there, certainly there’s not enough resources right now that are allocated to Centers for Independent Living for them to do a realistic job of adequately serving all of the need. And I think this, it’s amazing what gets done on the little amount of funding that they receive. So the presence at the Capitol is one to advocate for additional resources, but also to track legislation and policy that may impact people with disabilities. So not only distills look out for themselves, and FACIL looks out for the CILs. But FACIL also looks out for the disability community to try and advocate when we see something that that’s a proposed bill or proposed rules or policies that could have a negative impact on people with disabilities or that could be enhanced or improved. And, and we also make suggestions about increasing funding or improving programs. So we, on behalf of the Centers for Independent Living, who each represent the people in their communities, we sort of roll all those all those needs up to facile and then facile represents those needs to the legislature and to state agencies because that’s the other piece about being in Tallahassee that people sometimes forget, even though the legislative session is only 60 days long rulemaking policymaking and you know, agency procurements happened 365 days a year. And it’s really important for someone in Tallahassee representing the sales to have relationships with the people that are making that decision, those decisions so they can hear the perspectives of the Centers for Independent Living, which ultimately are the perspectives of consumers. So and I am not the leader, I’m standing on the shoulders of the sill directors who are taking input from their consumers. So it’s it’s definitely a an organic approach, which I love because it is grassroots in the true sense of the word we don’t we’re not an industry, we don’t have a product that we sell. We are you know, we all are committed to try to improve life as much as we can and make life as accessible and independent as possible for people with disabilities. So no, we’re not trying to monetize something. We’re trying to to raise awareness and increase our ability to play a role in people’s lives.

Tony Delisle  15:05

You know, I really want to highlight some of the things that you just mentioned there about Centers for Independent Living is that our services are free for the people that we serve, which we refer to as consumers. And that it is consumer controlled, which again, we take the feedback from the people we’re serving, and provide the services that they’re telling us that they need. So it’s very tailored to what their identified needs are. And like you said, Centers for Independent Living over half of the staff, over half of the board have disabilities, people with disabilities, serving people with disabilities, I find it to be just a incredible model, that really seems to work very well. And I really appreciate how you fold all this into really having a collective voice among all the different centers from this state, and they’re at the Capitol to talk to the legislators and other, you know, agency directors and people that work in, you know, the just the multitude of areas within our government. In doing that, we really get into the space of advocacy, this is something that we really try and promote here at Centers for Independent Living, trying to teach people how to advocate for their own needs, but also in terms of systemic advocacy, which is what we’re kind of talking about here. Imagine, you know, you’re a person with a disability, you know, you have an issue that is very important to you, perhaps it’s, you know, you know, parking spaces, it’s equitable health, it’s employment, it’s getting graduated from high school, there’s just something that’s near and dear to your heart. And, and you want to, you know, get more involved in this realm of, you know, advocacy at a legislative or even a policy level. How does one go about really kind of learning, especially if you don’t have the experiences and the knowledge and the know how the wisdom that you have Jane, you know, how does somebody with a disability really start to learn more about the issues and getting involved in terms of making an impact?

Jane Johnson  17:00

I think there’s a lot of good examples I can think of over the years where people with disabilities have approached legislators directly, either through emailing them or attending a legislative delegation meeting. Or, you know, there’s a young woman down in the Tampa area who was actually had a job working for a legislator, and had to inform her boss when the boss wanted to give her a raise, that she couldn’t get a raise because she relied upon a program, a state funded program that had income restrictions. So she made more money, she would lose her benefits. And when the legislature heard legislator heard about that, she was outraged. She had no idea and this is what someone who had served on healthcare committees and had overseen the development of policies around the Medicaid waiver programs. She realized the impact that this was having and the unintended consequence, it had of limiting people’s employment potential because you were tied to a low income to receive a benefit, which didn’t make any sense in terms of allowing people to achieve their full potential. So from that conversation came up a proposal that was adopted by the legislature and we Florida has raised the income limits for people who receive Medicaid waiver services. So that’s like a, an extreme example of someone getting a job as an aide and then legislators office and educating that legislators almost accidentally, but it shows you what is possible. But another sort of more pedestrian example would be if you’re first emailing your members, first you have to find out who represents you in Tallahassee, who are your local House and Senate members. And you can find that on the House website and the senate website, you can see if you’re a voter, then you can look at your voter registration card to see what district you’re in. If you’re not a voter, then you should as soon as this podcast is over, go figure out how to register to vote.

Tony Delisle  18:45

That’s really important. That’s one thing centers help people do as well.

Jane Johnson  18:49

Yes, and if you do not register, then call local Center for Independent Living, and they can walk you through that process. And if you have a disability that you think is going to make it difficult to register, they can help you with that. And they can also help you vote on election day or before election day. So but you know, getting involved in the process, first as a voter and then as a constituent in your local representatives and senators, districts, making sure that you know how to get in touch with them, make them aware of an issue. Remember that they are really busy, but they usually hire really good staff. And so it’s it’s okay if you just have a conversation with a staff person in someone’s office and not them directly. Because a lot of times, legislators will take their cues from their staff because they they hire those staff for their policy expertise and you know facile and it’s in the sills have developed really good relationships over the years with several legislators who understand their issues and who are kind of our go to people. But every two years we have turnover in the legislature. So we always need to be recruiting new allies and new friends. But I think the most important thing piece of advice I would give is that every legislator is a person. Just Like us, and every agency head is a person just like us, they live they breathe, they have families, they cry, they they get depressed, they get, they feel insecure, we all have that. I mean, the universals of the human condition are shared across everyone, regardless of what your abilities or disabilities, so they’re just remember the things that unify us. So don’t be intimidated. And, and be, don’t be angry, light be deferential. But also remember that your personal story will probably resonate more than kind of a five point. Issue brief or a passionate request for something that’s just absolutely not right. That can be off putting an intimidating, especially if someone’s not familiar with disability, but if they’re meeting a human being, and you’re speaking human to human, and you’re humanizing the issue that you’re trying to, to make make traction on, I think you’re generally going to be more successful that way. Because again, this is we’re all humans, AJ have a title, but they still have their humanity, the humanity, they don’t leave that behind. So, but it’s easy to forget it because we’re a culture that likes to put people on pedestals if they have fame, or notoriety, but it doesn’t, doesn’t diminish their humanity, it’s still just a big as big a part of them as it is in you.

Tony Delisle  21:23

The… I love your answer, they’re going back. So we have more in common than we do differently. And I appreciate you really illuminating the humanity that we all should point towards and share in that commonality with one another, I really think that could go a long way into discussing some of the hard issues that are out there having empathy and relating and connecting to people. And we find in you know, in this space, this podcast, that you we can find a lot of unity through disability. And I imagine that your conversations with people at the legislature department heads perhaps may or may be a lot easier, people have experienced disability and their own family or their own lives and, and can really connect in that sense. So that’s why I really appreciate you sharing that if people really want to advocate telling your story. You know, learning learning how to tell your story to people that are decision makers can really go a long way and complement what I think you do very well Jane and many of us as directors often do is we we’re data driven. And so we’ll bring in the stats that show these disparities in education, employment, health, transportation, housing, all across the board, we got reports and all these other things that are critical to be informed about making the right decisions. But then, you know, the the heartstring part of this is that, you know, this data represents eyeballs, hearts, you lives of people, and it can get lost in the data that is needed. But I think it really closes the an important part of the circle that’s needed to come around people and and do those kinds of things.

Jane Johnson  22:52

Well, and you want to differentiate yourself. And I say that because I spent a couple years working in the Governor’s Office of Policy and budget and the governor has the final say on the state budget every year. And so his policy folks were the ones we had a look at the budget and make recommendations to him about what vetoes to to make, and we also had to make recommendations about what we should approve in when he put out his budget. So because of that the way the process works, because the people the lobbyists here in Tallahassee knows who’s having that input, and who can influence those decisions. So I would literally have lobbyists come through my office all day long, just cycling in and out trying to make their case about this issue or that issue. And it really became I became numb. And I just one more, one more, one more. And I found that people were who were able to differentiate themselves from the masses and make their stories more personal. stuck with me and you know, and sometimes I really liked it sometimes I really did and but it it wasn’t just another lobbyists lobbying on behalf of a company that wanted money because usually it was money or and sometimes it was a policy change. So I think it’s important to be human to differentiate yourself and to sort of seal yourself in the in their psyche. So they they know when they see that issue. They think about you they think about your story or the story of the family member that you shared. So that opens the door for you. But then once you’re in the door, you need to speak their language. And that language right now and at least for the past 20 years because we’ve had a republican dominated legislature and governor’s office is fiscal conservatism. Conservativism. So if you’re asking for a policy change or an appropriation, you have to like Tony you just mentioned, you need to have the data available to be able to show there’s a return on investment. You need to be able to show why this isn’t just another pot of money layered on top of all the money they’re spending because most legislators don’t understand the budget and they don’t understand the myriad programs that are out there getting funded to serve disabilities and and all kinds of other services. So they, they see, you know, an ask as just another thing on top of everything else. And it’s really important for you to demystify that for them, and show them in as simply as possible. You know what, what you’re asking for, and what the outcome is that you want to achieve, and then what the benefits to the state will be from that outcome. And so if it’s allowing people to live more independently and achieve their economic potential, like raising the income limits for people with disabilities to receive Medicaid waiver services, then you can talk about what happens now that they’re in fully employed, they’re buying more they’re paying taxes, they’re able to do more things by themselves are able to be full participants in the economic society. And it reduces their reliance on other publicly funded programs set like food stamps, or housing vouchers or other things that have been created to help people who have low income. So I think that’s really important to be able to tell that return on investment program. And just, you know, I would highly recommend that people watch a couple of legislative committee meetings so you can get inside the heads of the legislature and understand how they think and what what kind of questions they asked, and what’s important to them. But again, at the end of the day, especially if it’s an appropriation, when they’re going through the budget and trying to decide what to fund if they can associate an issue with a person or a story, you’ve stuck, you’ve got stickiness, you know, that you’re not just one of many things that they’ve got to go through and, and figure out what you know what to cut what to keep. So I think that that’s really important.

Tony Delisle  27:01

It’s kind of like you were hitting the mind with the data and the heart with the real life stories that the people are experiencing. And I really appreciate how you just did a basic civics one on one right there and look forward to further episodes where you can get real granular and in a stepwise manner of like, you know, I know that, you know, you live in an area where there’s a representative and a senator in the state capitol, that are responsible for being your voice, find out who they are, reach out to them, don’t be dissuaded if you get a hold of a staff member, and you may be talking to them, and not that person, that’s up to Tallahassee because they can be a very influential with the person that you’re trying to reach. And perhaps keep going back and, and having the the ability to make human connections, learn how to tell your story, speak their language, if there are fiscally conservative. So again, like you’re saying the return on investment, you know, Centers for Independent Living or, you know, providing the services and because they’re providing the services, someone that was receiving, you know, benefits, got a job, and now they don’t need benefits, because they have a job and they just say, you know, so being able to talk the language, you just right there, I think laid out a really good stepwise thing that people can get involved in. And I would even go even closer to home and say, you know, find out where your city or county commission meetings are, and when they’re being held. And and that’s really local and and and if just getting, you know, familiar with the process itself, is huge. There’s so much to learn. I imagine it’s, you know, even for yourself a veteran, and this is still continuing learning the Civic process and all these other kind of things that are out there and what influences people, I appreciate you given a really good like civics one on one there. So what are what are some of the specific issues that are right, foremost there, the Capitol, whether they’re never present issues that you know, with disabilities as always working to overcome? Or what are the hot button issues that are trending there at the Capitol that people should be aware of?

Jane Johnson  29:02

Well, as you can guess, the COVID-19 pandemic is really eating everybody’s lunch, it became front and center, you know, the House and the Senate and the governor’s office, each and announced their, their big priorities prior to the pandemic happening. And those pandemic those priorities really have had to take a backseat to figuring out one how to get you know, flatten the curve, which we thought we had done and never the curve is back up. And now we’re in the mode of trying to figure out how to get the vaccines deployed. So in a way that that is fair, equitable, and effective. So that sounds like a cop out answer. But that really that’s that’s a huge priority right now. we dodged a bullet on election, election integrity, because we had a good election here in Florida so that that could have been an issue. It’s been an issue in the past. So

Tony Delisle  29:52

I think you’ll see hanging chads.

Jane Johnson  29:55

I think, I think Georgia that’s going to be front and center and you know, in their session. That’s all I think you’re gonna see, I know that there’s legislation with putting stricter penalties on protests, violent protests and yesterday’s events in, in Washington DC will probably influence how that that dialogue goes, you’re going to see. And I hope this happens this year. But for the past several years, Senator Jeff Brandis from the St. Pete area, has really been trying to push for criminal justice reform, which is so important. And I think for people who have mental, mental health disabilities, I think that’s a really important issue. And people with substance use disorder as also because a lot of people who are incarcerated are incarcerated as a complicated as it because of complications related to mental health issues and substance use disorder. And he’s trying to take a look at people who are incarcerated and make sure that the right people are there, and that people who are nonviolent offenders who have other things going on in their lives that kind of got them there can can have another path besides incarceration. So you’ll see that you’re gonna see a lot of environmental attention on our water supplies, and some the Republican House and Senate leadership have acknowledged the importance of I don’t think they’re calling it climate change. But water encroachment, we know there’s we’re seeing our shorelines get smaller and smaller. And so I think there’s going to be a tension there. But it’s really hard to say, and I don’t mean that I don’t I really am not trying to dodge your question. But COVID-19 has, has had such an impact. It’s impacted education. So I think you’re going to have to see a real engineering of how students are educated if they’re not able to come to the classroom. Teachers have been stressed more than ever before. And teacher pay was a big issue for Governor desantis in his first term. But we may see that come back again, you may see some, the Marjory Stoneman Douglas commission met, continued to meet and the results of their most recent report were escaping in terms of their evaluation of Florida’s mental health system, because it’s like it’s very balkanized is broken up and it’s spread out across multiple agencies that are not connected, and the don’t communicate and people get lost. And the ultimate outcome is that services are not delivered well, and people, we spend a lot of money on mental health, but we don’t have good outcomes to show for it. So I think it could be any, any one of a mix of that with COVID kind of being the know the gorilla in the room, pushing those off the table if things don’t get better soon.

Tony Delisle  32:32

Yeah, yeah, I want to comment on some of the issues you brought up there related to social justice, everything that’s going on right now. And that area, you’re bringing up, you know, mental health, incarceration Centers for Independent Living, were really formed because of the way that people with disabilities were institutionalized. So the 1973 Rehab Act comes along, and Congress mandates funding for Centers for Independent Living, to transition people out of institutions, and back into the community. And I’ve heard other people say, and I would also agree that, you know, our modern form of institutionalization is the over incarceration of people with disabilities and the rates of people with disabilities that are already in our prisons, and we tend to in prison, our population more than almost every other country in the civilized world is very high, and perhaps preventable. And we should maybe start looking at this as our modern form of institutionalization, we, you know, often hear about the school to prison pipeline that many non white youth are, are on and in many of this could be prevented, diverted. And that’s part of our mission, you know, is to really go into those areas. And I think we have a really key role to play there. And mental health being something that’s really out there right now with as you’re saying, with the the school shootings and the commission that still works on that, this is a very important place for us. You bring up also, you know, the times that we’re in with COVID. And so we’re, it’s January 7, 2021. Right now, people with disabilities are more impacted by the COVID virus for a variety of different reasons, and has been very disturbing and in many ways, the fact that people with disabilities tend to get the virus and are more likely to die from the virus. And there was inequities that are out there. And now we’re in a moment of where vaccine amazing feat of science has been created and getting the distribution out there presents all kinds of access and functional, you know, kind of issues that that can be out there in the messaging that communicating you know, people that are barriers to getting the vaccination and all these other things are so much in play right now. And the messaging right now that’s going out, we really need to be thinking about how we’re, it’s being sent out and so it’s accessible for everybody, especially people with disabilities that might, you know, have, you know, either a language barriers or have, you know, intellectual barriers or just all these other kinds of things are out there. So that’s that’s a huge place that we’re at right now. And we’ve been You know, in a COVID type environment since March of 2020, I believe that marks are things when our center close. And so you know, we’re closing in on almost a year now, in a transition into this post COVID world, how have you seen Centers for Independent Living? make this transition? Now again, you’re you’re you know, up there in Tallahassee, you represent all 15 centers, you got a pretty good bird’s eye view of how all of us as being the different 15 centers in the state, how have we adopted pivoted to this time in COVID? Have you seen that, from where you sit?

Jane Johnson  35:33

As you’re asking the question I’ve got this image in my mind is of a drop of water in a lake that like creates ripples and goes out and out and out. And I because because when what I remember happening, and we would have daily calls, at least weekly calls with all of the centers throughout this, you know that the first weeks of the pandemic, but we saw, I saw the center’s first look to their own people to their staff and their team and make sure everyone was safe and figure out what what they could do. And as you mentioned, use you closed down on March 13, most of the centers had to close down because of local ordinances. We then were told we were at Center for Independent Living were considered essential providers. Yes, there was a shift to figure out how can we continue to be available to consumers, but not be open for business in terms in a physical way. So so the first ripple was, the centers took care of them, their their people, their teams, and their families and the consumers that they knew in their sort of immediate network that they had a lot of frequent contact with. And then from there, I just watched Center by center, different, each one reacted differently, but all creatively and nimbly, to figure out how they could continue serving people by phone by, by zoom, and all the skill Center for Independent Living had an opportunity to upgrade their technology infrastructure. And they did that they made those investments with the consumers in mind to figure out how can I best stay connected? Can How can I see my consumers? How can I keep them supported through a pandemic, when I can’t, my doors can’t be open, or we can’t have face to face visits. So I watched the centers evolve into technological organizations, you know, virtual organizations, literally, I mean, it was literally overnight, it was amazing how fast the very cool thing for me as as facile director was watching the center’s each learn from one another because we would have these regular calls. And the director would say, Well, how are you doing this? or How are you doing that? What do you do about this, and so they would idea share, they would they would collaborate, they would, they would kind of learn from each other, it was really amazing to see that process work. It was, again, it was very organic, there was a lot of entrepreneurialism, that became like a think tank. And then from those Think Tank conversations, then this, the center directors would go out and try to implement the same iterate and iteration of what was being done by another center or some variation that better serve their community, because we have such a diverse population that we’re serving concurrent with that work that I saw the centers do, I was able to participate it with the Emergency Operations Center on daily calls to talk about how are things going and what what the needs are out in the community. And through those conversations that I gained access to because of the Florida Independent Living Council, which is not another Association, it’s a state, there’s actually a federally established Council, that they represent the Independent Living network, and they’re responsible for the state Independent Living plan. But we worked very closely together. And through their connection with the Emergency Operations Center, I was able to have a seat at that table, and to listen to the conversations and then brainstorm about solutions. And one of the things that came out of that that was so exciting was feeding Florida has affiliates, like the centers all around the state that provide support to food banks. And so people with disabilities who were isolating at home had had trouble accessing food banks or getting food. And so we were able to connect the feeding Florida affiliates with the Centers for Independent Living, and they each developed relationships where the centers could receive food that and then they can make that food available to the people in the community. And this was critically important at a time when a lot of people lost their employment. A lot of people are reemployed now, but a lot of people had lost their employment, their income, they were isolated. And it was really, it was frightening. And I don’t know that we’ll ever fully know the extent of food insecurity that happened in that moment because it was temporary, and no one was really tracking it. But I think it was pretty, pretty frightening. So the centers were able to play a huge role in that because of our involvement at the Emergency Operations Center. We also were able to bring in the Home Health Care Association of Florida to see if they could help with people who needed Personal Care Assistance because there were bcaas, which is the acronym for personal care assistance or either Coming down with COVID, or afraid to go to people’s homes because they didn’t want to infect their families, or people who relied on personal care assistants were afraid to have someone come into their home. So there was there was another whole sort of micro problem happening under the surface of most people’s radar that we were able to become aware of through our connection with the EEOC. And then are we you know, I literally called the executive director of the homecare association of Florida and said, Can you get on these calls, we need to talk and see how we can work together. And they were more than willing to work together with the Centers for Independent Living. And we did the same thing with the State Agency for Health Care administration, making her aware of what our needs were, it was regard to making sure that managed care plans were doing everything that they can for the people that they in their members, who would be people, you know, receiving Medicaid services, and making sure that they, their social and emotional needs were being met, in addition to their health care needs. Because that was that’s another huge piece, it’s, it’s, those are determinants of health. But they’re often neglected, because they don’t show up on your medical record, but they can drive what’s on your medical record. So that was, um, it was really cool to see all of that evolve. festal created a resource page on our website, where we try to consolidate all the information on in various areas, because there was so much coming out all at once. And a lot of it was changing, because definitely the federal government was building that plane while they flew it. And deadlines change regularly that the small business association rules on the payroll Protection Program, and also the economic injury disaster loan program, there’s all kinds of financial assistance coming out, but the rules and regulations around them evolved. So trying to keep all that updated was hard. So we tried to put it all in one place. Yeah, that was, um, it was a really frenetic time. But when I look back on it, my memories are very positive. Because of what I watched the center’s do, they definitely rose to the occasion, they recreated themselves, they know they grew and developed. In some cases, they were able to establish connections with people that they hadn’t had before, because things could be done virtually. And so people didn’t have to come to the center. And they didn’t have to go to someone’s home. But we could, we could be invited into one another’s lives more easily and more frequently, which I think has been a real positive.

Tony Delisle  42:20

Jane, you have great summary there. And yes, you’re saying that I relate to many of what you’re saying keeping our staff and consumer safe checking in on the ones that we know about. And growing that out. I think what you talked about participating at the state’s emergency operation center when it was activated from the pandemic and going there every day and getting updates from the State Department emergency management and all the other affiliates that work with them. Having a voice at the table being able to communicate some of the needs and provide technical assistance really did open up the door for us and I know a good amount of the other centers providing a service we’ve never done before which is home based delivery of essential resources like you mentioned feeding Florida really opened the door for us to work with our local food banks to acquire and and then once we acquired the food we can you know get the food out to people food security is huge and the economic impact is still with us it’s getting you know much worse in many ways the longer it goes on. And so we’re finding that we’ve carved a lane out and meeting the access and functional needs of people with disabilities who are food insecure but can’t get out to local food distributions or even access food themselves from work it’s just really good opportunity for us to get even beyond food other essential resources out to people and your participation up there along with the Florida Independent Living council another piece of the Independent Living network participation up there really helped to for our senator many other senators to provide a service that we’ve never done before and like you said now we’re providing in innovative ways that we never were I don’t know if we’d be doing this podcast right now if we weren’t putting in this situation to try and you know look at different platforms of talking to people and creating communities and connection so I’m glad that you’re seeing that I think one of the biggest benefits of facile Is that what you pointed towards and when we came together and shared information what are you doing or here’s what’s working for us this is what I learned this is that sharing happened at the director level but it was happening more than I’ve ever seen at the direct service care provider levels Independent Living skill, you know, instructors were talking to each other people that provide depth services were talking to each other their associate managers were program managers were talking to each other information referral folks were talking to each other and getting together and really swapping out ideas I hope this continues there was already you know, some some some of that going on to begin with. But I just hope this force amplifies that collaboration. Because that’s where I really find the benefit of facile is really the interpersonal sharing of information and an experiences that we can really borrow and and and improve upon or modify to bring back to our own place. So I really I really have appreciated that part of going through a crisis.

Jane Johnson  45:05

I hope it continues, I just want to say cuz to echo what you said, you know that book, Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam was so interesting, I read it probably 10 or so years ago, but it’s, he talks about how we are essentially tribal people. And we need connection. And we need groups where we can come together around something besides ourselves. And I think that that is, especially in a pandemic, everyone needs at every level within the the hierarchy of a CIL or any organization. But the groups that have been able to that sort of these little, there’s these ecosystems that have been created, and we’re all better nourished, mentally, and physically, as a result, I think because we have, we can, we can talk to other people who do the same job in another part of the state and probably have the same frustrations, or have solved the same problems. And it’s very affirming, it’s very, very healthy, to have that connection. And because of the pandemic and being forced to move virtual, we’ve been able to connect people on a level that we haven’t been able to do before. And I do think that working in working in a center for end to end living is not an ideal state, it’s not Camelot, it’s hard because you’re confronted with really difficult problems and difficult questions, you can get frustrated easily because you’ve got a lot of times we’re working against a system that doesn’t move easily. So having people that you can share those those frustrations with and kind of talk to and get reinforcement from is really important to staying motivated. And, and staying on top of your game. So you continue to take a positive attitude. When when challenges jump in your lap, as they will always.

Tony Delisle  47:11

Yeah, yeah. And then that connection fills my bucket and really does help us to endure to these challenges and make us better for it. And so relying on each other, again, unity through disability, and we can come together and be with each other as we go through that is so key and needed. And I say this to really kind of get a little serious in our conversation here. Today is January 7, 2021. Yesterday was January 6, 2021, a day in which in Washington DC they were aiming to certify the election, and something very historic happened in which the capital is broached. And, and there’s been a lot of fallout due to that. And and I’m not here to have a conversation about the specifics in that situation. But I do think it does point to the division and the type of communication and discourse that is very prevalent in our politicking right now. And so someone like ujjain, who is constantly meeting with legislators, staffers, and other department officials, and you are swimming in the ocean of politics, and are very well versed in type the type of discourse and nature of the conversations that are happening nowadays, which seem to be very reactive and offensive and finding the other and all these other forces are in play. So in this environment, what what are you what are you finding to be important in terms of how to navigate the type of political environment that we’re in, to still try and get the work done that’s needed to get done in order to improve the lives of people with disabilities? Like so how do we navigate these waters, from a perspective of, you know, moving in advancing important conversations around the policies that are impacting people with disabilities?

Jane Johnson  49:12

You know, I think what we are learning over the, with the events of yesterday, and the events leading up to yesterday are that there, there’s truth and there’s opinions. And we’ve mixed, we’ve melded the two. And we’ve started to think that someone’s opinion is truth when it’s just an opinion. So I think that keeping that in mind, it’s really important to focus on universal truths. And disability is a universal truth. We will always have disability, it’ll never go away. It’s always been there. It’s in the Bible. It’s, it’s in the future. Disability is part of life. And it’s it’s a shared part of life and I kind of like what I talked about earlier about getting making it personal. For our work, our North Star, the focus of our company should be on the reason why we’re here. And that is to to celebrate, and to support people with disabilities and to identify barriers to independence and to create more opportunities for people to live independently or more independently. So I think as long as that focus, as long as I maintain that focus, I am not Republican, I am not Democrat, I am not liberal, I am not conservative. I don’t have I don’t, I don’t, I don’t want to. I’m swimming in the sea of politics, but I want to keep my head above the water and focused on you know, the land I’m suing to, and not get caught up with all this the, you know, the stuff around me that could freak me out, like the plankton and sharks and this and that, just focusing, focusing on on the destination, because that’s why I’m here. And I think, but and ironically, I think everyone around me in the water also wants to get there, but they forgot why because they’re looking at all this other stuff. So I think just rising above the noise. Sometimes, you know, if you refuse to engage in the opinions in the politics, some some people will be offended, a lot of people are relieved. Okay, so you’re not going to talk about that. You just want to know about this. Okay, I can talk about this. It’s not, it’s not divisive. People have made disability issues divisive, but they shouldn’t be they’re really not. I think that’s more the result of an in artful discussions or, you know, conversations that maybe got too passionate, but really, there’s nothing. There’s nothing divisive about disability, it’s, it’s when you humanize it, and you and you use plain language, use inside voices to explain, you know, what the problem is, and where you need where, where things need to change, there’s nothing divisive, it’s, as far as I’m concerned, it’s, it’s as plain as say, like I said earlier, it’s like drinking water, why wouldn’t you want this for other people. So I think if we can just remember those things, and not get caught up in the noise, I think we’ll be okay. And in some cases will be, I don’t mind talking to those people, because and this was another advocacy point I forgot to make. But don’t come with a problem. If you don’t have a solution. Don’t just show up and tell people what they’re doing wrong, or why the system is broken, or why you need more money for this or that. That’s everybody does that.

Tony Delisle  52:17

And it’s just complaining. It’s just complaining.

Jane Johnson  52:20

Yes, it, it gets tiresome, and people will set you off, you’ll be talking and they won’t be hearing anything, it’s just right over their head. Because there’s, you know, human tolerance is only so, so big, and people just, they shut down. Because if there’s a problem that seems so complicated and big, and there’s no solution, they they’re gonna move on and have a doughnut. So anyway, but so I think that that’s that’s the important thing to be be the adults in the room. Focus on that universal truth that disability is a universal part of life, and come to the table with identify the issue but but have a solution that’s just as just as strong as the problem, you know, just as well articulated as the problem. And you may not know the entire solution, but you can make recommendations because, you know, invariably, what you think is a solution may not work because of the way things are so complicated. When it comes to state and federal programs that you can probably get to where you’re going, you might not be able to go exactly the route you’re proposing. The opt ins still comply with federal and state guidelines, but you can probably get there, or at least partially get there. But I’m going to take your your swimming, net one step for one, a few more strokes further, play the long game, but don’t be but don’t be unwilling to stop and make short gains. So if you have to stop on an island from and rest for a while, do that keep the shore in line, but but you know, you won’t get it all in one session, maybe won’t all happen at once. But you so you need to have a short game and a long game. And that’s where sort of visioning comes into play. I think that’s how the Rehab Act was passed. I don’t think we know it didn’t, didn’t happen overnight. It took a longer it took a lot of advocacy, the advocacy, that approach that worked in the 70s probably wouldn’t work today, because so much progress has been made that that you you don’t have the same disparities and discrepancies that you did. And you also you it was happening in an age where protests were pretty common. So it was it was part of a whole lot of cultural a cultural environment that was different than where we are today. So but um, so yeah, no, I would just say got to be relevant. And and remember that disability is universal and it’s it’s not a political issue. It’s it’s super it’s, it’s supersedes politics, and it’s in applies to affect everyone and if it isn’t affecting you today, well when you’re when you’re 80, and you need a walker.

Tony Delisle  54:57

That’s right. Oh yeah, and So what what I hear you saying is that what’s needed in this current political environment is clarity, like you mentioned, the North Star, you know, to compass to tell us where we’re going. And clarity often is said to be a superpower. And, you know, to get clear on what that is, and what our values are, and, you know, also said unity, you know, I really appreciate that you’re really tying in disability impacts everybody, this is something where it’s not political, where you can come together and help one another. And with your island analogy, I heard patience, patience. You know, that that’s a tough one there, because the urgency of now, but it is, seems to be a universal truth, that things that are worthwhile take time, and they have the endurance, I know you’re an endurance athlete, like to have the endurance to keep in, persist and persevere, takes patience, and then that value of patience is also critical. And so I really think that if we can take to heart those values you just highlighted there, along with what you were saying earlier in the interview with just recognizing the humanity in the other person, even if it’s the other person that and this is just me speaking, that is, you know, maybe not thinking of the same, you know, perspectives as you are, maybe they’re actively trying to offend me, you know, maybe they’re, you know, trying to act, you know, this the kind of discourse that we have now, how can I have patience for that person? How can I have empathy for that person, how can I maybe, you know, get out of my own head in my own, you know, reactiveness, and all these other things and have compassion, I feel like, we need that more than ever. And I feel like, that’s a very hard thing to do. Like, that’s almost a higher level thing to do. It’s definitely for me, you know, something I’m trying to put into practice. But you know, just at the end of the day, recognizing that we have more in common than we knew different, and not getting distracted by this plankton that’s around us that we can look to divide us and become so tribalistic and that sense, so I seek to be, you know, somebody that really does not traffic and trying to offend people and anger people and really come at it, you know, with a way of agreeable that we can disagree and have civil discourse, and have the ability to let go of my own perspective and see life from another perspective, and then revisit my own and see if that’s changed at all, it’s hard to do when I’m angry at somebody, or offended by them. And that is a choice. You know, having an opinion about that is kind of where a lot of things can maybe go awry, you know, things aren’t good or bad, but thinking makes it so and so, a lot of the things are indifferent, and we, you know, apply our opinions to it, and things can go awry that way. So we’re gonna, you know, start coming in on the end of closing questions here. I got two of them for you. One of them is, what is your vision? You know, if you were gonna, you know, project out just a little bit here, for what you the impact you want to have, as the director for the facile. What is your vision of the influence the results of your involvement with this organization for people with disabilities?

Jane Johnson  58:15

I really, really want to do everything I can to create to increase the stature of Center for Independent Living in Florida, I want every legislator to know what a Center for Independent Living is, and what they do, I want centers to be seen as the assets that they are. And I want to do what I can to open the door to new opportunities for centers to serve more people to do more to have the resources to expand their footprints. Really, I just, it’s all about growth. But I think the stature piece of it has to happen also so that people see the value. And I think that Centers for Independent Living are modest to a fault, they have a value proposition, they can make an offer to the community to, to local government to state government, and but they’re not very good at patting themselves on the back and selling selling themselves. And so I feel like I can unapologetically be that spokesperson for the sales there and talk about them proudly and brag about the things that they do, and, and how they change their communities. And, you know, ask the question, What would your what would your community look like without a Center for Independent Living, and then kind of tell them what this is what would happen if all these people weren’t getting the services or hadn’t gotten those services, this is where they’d be living. This is how they’d be living this is how much more it would cost. So so I think that to me, is my my vision is that I hope that when I’m no longer with fasil, that I can look back and say that we are a better organization. Now and the scale and the Center for Independent Living, have been able to achieve their potential because it’s only for lack of resources and opportunity. It’s not that they lack the ability. It’s just there. They haven’t been given. You know, they’re they have a fixed amount of money and they have to serve an unfixed population. regular basis and regularly we see we know that needs are going unmet because we just we don’t have the we don’t have the resources. But also there’s opportunities. Are there programs were still should be made major players, we’re not now and I’d like to see them become major players?

Tony Delisle  1:00:18

Well, I think we’re on our way and many effort levels because of your involvement with it. I want to acknowledge you before I ask my last question. Because of you, first of all your knowledge of how the system legislatively works, the skills you have in communicating with people influencing people, the ability to build and sustain relationships, which is so important in this area, your ability to think creatively, your emotional intelligence and agility, your ability to work with 15 directors who are used to being in charge and having their way and, you know, being able to, like, I just have this ability that you have to do the job that you do is quite stunning. And and I and I’ve taken notes, and I’m learning a lot from you, you have a lot to offer, not just our membership, but all people who we touch as well. And I look forward to continuing conversations with you that we all can learn more about civics, how to advocate how to be better, what are the issues, how we can come up with solutions, like you said, you know, identifying the problems, after a while if we don’t have solutions is just complaining, you know, there’s no training needed to be a critic. But there is a lot of training needed to be someone that really has the skills and commitment to implement the solutions needed to those problems that were criticizing. So I commend you for being all those things and more Jane.

Jane Johnson  1:01:45

Tony, my work is inspired by the people I work for. So I’ll just say that, that I see the centers, the directors in the work that they do, and the commitment and the frustration they have because they just want to do more, which is really exciting. To me, that’s theirs, this is not a complacent group. So anyway, so you are way too complimentary, because really, I’m only as good as the people I represent.

Tony Delisle  1:02:07

Well, that speaks to your humility, and another great asset and value you bring to the table. And I also like how you pointed toward this is the infinite game, as Simon Sinek would say, there is no finish line to the work that we’re doing here. We’re all going to be standing on shoulders, and other people will be standing on our shoulders. So our last question Jane, we ask everybody is this question is to you, Jane, what is the independent life?

Jane Johnson  1:02:36

The independent life is being able to dream of a future and then having the opportunity to pursue that dream, whether you get to the dream or not, but knowing that you have an opportunity to try to pursue a dream, because whether that means going to school and and training to become a neurosurgeon, or if if it means being able to see your family, I just, I don’t know, it doesn’t matter how big or how small, but I think that when you are independent, that means you’re given the opportunity to have a dream, and the chance to pursue it. Because I do I do know that there are people who live in institutions, or who are in settings where life is so stressful that they end so limited that they can’t dream and they certainly can’t try to pursue a dream. So to me, that’s that’s the goal for for all people of all, regardless of ability, but just being able to have a dream and have the opportunity to try to achieve it, whether whether it’s you’re successful or not.

Tony Delisle  1:03:45

That’s beautiful Jane, and I really appreciate how whether you’re successful or not points to the process of working towards our dream. And then the way that is the end, not the means to the end it really we got to enjoy trying to live to that ideal, whatever that is for us to live independently. And in that process, fall in love with the process of again, there may not ever be a finish line. So Jane, I really appreciate spending time with you and having this conversation. I look forward to many more to come and continued. wish you well health and all the efforts that you do on behalf of our association and on behalf of people with disabilities and just the behalf of all people everywhere. So Jane, thank you very much.

Jane Johnson  1:04:31

Thank you, Tony. Yes, this has been wonderful. I just really appreciate it. Have a great day.

Tony Delisle  1:04:35

Take care, onward and upward. Hello everyone. And this is Tony coming to you to let you know about a new weekly addition to our Independent Life podcast. We’re going to have weekly episodes that catch us up on what is going on in our Capitol related to the legislature the policies, the laws, the issue That impact people with disabilities. We are going to be brought this information to you by Jane Johnson, the executive director for the Florida Association for Centers for Independent Living. She is going to tell us what is going on today what to look forward tomorrow. And along the way she’s going to talk about some civics, some one on one some things that we should know about how the process works, because this is very important in terms of us being advocates. advocacy is one of the core services that Centers for Independent Living provide. Self Advocacy, and systemic advocacy are two parts of what it means to advocate and each of which are very important in terms of the legislative process. When we will look at the history of the independent living movement. It is filled and continues to be filled with advocates supporting the laws policies, and civil rights for people with disabilities. This history has led to the 1973 Rehabilitation Act where Centers for Independent Living are funded from this has led to the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, which supports accommodations and other provisions for people in education, the Fair Housing Act, fair labor laws, there’s so many different types of policies and laws that are on the books today, because of people with disabilities who advocated for them. So this will be a space where we get to learn more about what’s relevant what’s going on in the Capitol. We’re going to learn more about the process. And through this, we’re going to be informed to a point where we can push forward onward and upward to advocate for the issues that are near and dear to our heart. So we look forward to having you along and keeping our ear to the ground or what’s going on with the decision makers in our Capitol as it pertains to people with disabilities live in the independent life.

As we start a new year and begin to work through our resolutions, we invite you to join us on this journey as we collectively ask ourselves: How through these challenges that we have, through the world of disability or the greater world at large, make us a better person? And as we strive to become a better person, how can we help other people to do the same. In times of uncertainty, Tony reflects on drawing upon values of commitment, integrity, caring about people, diversity, and collaboration to be his compass.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/1ylyYQH9Xcvj5NLMN5dqh7

SPEAKERS: Tony Delisle

Tony Delisle  00:00

Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode where in we’re going to take some stock, at least I am, on where we’ve been where we are and where we’re going. It is January 28, 2021. And there is so much going on in the world at large, and in the world of disability, in the world of independent living, all of us are going through very shared experiences right now. And this is, I think, a really good time to, perhaps, for me to share some thoughts about it. A lot of things come to mind, especially this time of year where I think it’s very typical people, you know, look to this is a time of renewal. And looking forward, for some clarity. This is a time where people make resolutions to make changes in their life where they can become a better version of themselves. And it’s well known that many resolutions don’t stick, that people go back on them for whatever reason, and it’s very challenging. One of the things on this journey that I am seeking and invite others who are listening to go along is how through these challenges that we have, whether it’s in the world of disability, or if it’s in the world of disability in the greater world at large that we’re in right now, in a way that makes us a better person. And in through becoming a better person, how can we help other people do the same thing. And so in this time of looking forward, and where the times are very uncertain, I definitely draw upon values to help build and be my compass and our organization, the Center for Independent Living North Central Florida has done similar work on itself. And when I look at those values, which our commitment, integrity, caring about people, diversity, collaboration, I don’t know where exactly the situations that are going to be and unfold in 2021 confident to say there, there are going to be challenges that are going to really test us. But when I look at these values, it makes it a lot easier for me to meet these uncertain times, with a sense of confidence, and a sense of clarity, that clarity that I am seeking to have every day, but especially now in a new year. Looking forward. Having clarity during uncertain times. Sounds like a paradox. But I do believe it is a reality. If we have these core values to matter what’s going on in the external situation, that these values can be a really important compass for us to say the right things and do the right things that are needed to help us be a better version of ourselves, and how we can be a contributing member to the society in the world that we live in. In this podcast, we’re going to be introducing to you and have introduced you to several people that deliver important services to improve and empower people with disabilities to live independently. We really find that this is a very important part of the podcast that we really want people to get connected more to independent living services, not just at our center, but in all centers. In the state of Florida. There’s a center that serves you, no matter where you live in the country, we have centers throughout the country. And we really want to make sure that people are aware of these services, and how they can benefit them to live the independent life. We’re also diving into many of the different complex issues that impact people with disabilities. We’ve already talked about intersectionality, we talked about the legislation and policies that are involved around with disabilities. And we’re going to be talking a lot about how the COVID pandemic impacted people with disabilities, health, transportation, housing, employment, education. There are a lot of complex issues and forces that are out there. And we are going to be unpacking these things, to better understand them and to also do better in these areas. Along the way, we’re going to be really diving into the values that it really takes to be able to make the change that we want to see within ourselves and within the world. And we’re going to do this by really talking to a lot of different people from different backgrounds that can offer up their wisdoms to us so that we can be the better version of ourselves and that we can, you know, help one another more than ever we need to be united during these times. And disability is that space where I fully believe that we can make that impact. I’ve been witness to our organization making many different changes throughout this year. We’ve been tested in many ways that were unforeseeable and through the adaptability of our organization, largely due to the hard work, skills, determination, heart that our staff has, we’ve been able to adapt and overcome many of the different obstacles that have been thrown in our direction. We’ve been challenged in so many different ways that were unimaginable, because we have met similar challenges and having disabilities and having to learn to work with one another, we’ve been better able to meet these times, I believe, because of it. So we’re going to close with a with a quote that is, I think, really relevant to these times right now, and comes from us from Marcus Aurelius, who talks about adversity is a part of life, bad things, disasters, disabilities, disease, war, conflict, inevitably, are a part of life. And one should not hope and pray that these things do not occur, but rather, that when they do occur, that we have the strength of character, to endure through them. And this really relates, I believe, to his other quote that we started this series out with, which talks about the impediments to our action advances our action, which stands in the way becomes the way, the obstacles are the way. And I believe this, these are the way to be in the better versions of ourselves. Because we are challenged to grow, we are challenged to be better. And we are required to then have the responsibility of helping others who are not in a place right now that we are in to be able to serve others. So I say to you all I hope that we can have a year of unity, have a year where we can collaborate and come together and to meet many of the obstacles that are in a way and in the process, be the best version of ourselves and build a better life for everyone. Thank you and I look forward to continuing our conversations. Onward and upward.

Gerry Altamirano is the Inclusion Strategist at Tangible Development. He also serves on the Board of Directors for CIL. On this episode we’ll be unpacking a lot of terms and concepts that are used in having conversations regarding equity, diversity, intersectionality, and ableism. 

Contact Gerry Altamirano: gerry@tangibledevelopment.com

https://open.spotify.com/episode/79POmb9bVWt3LIvX6EFrpp

SPEAKERS

Gerry Altamirano, Tony Delisle

Tony Delisle  00:00

Hello everyone, and I’m very excited to bring you this podcast, we’re going to be talking about issues in this podcast that are going to really set the stage for some of the discussions that we’ll have in some of our episodes regarding equity, diversity, disability, intersectionality, ableism. There’s so much that is going on in these areas that it’s important for us to learn as much as we can, and to do better. The independent living movement has been involved with these areas and issues and aspects and conversations for quite a long time. In spring 2020, and into June, these issues really got amplified due to the police brutality on people who are Black, and it really culminated with George Floyd. The amplification and attention that is going on nowadays into these issue areas, and how it impacts the independent living movement and philosophy is something that is very important for us to really understand know where we’ve been know where we are, know where we’re going. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The Independent Life. I am very excited about today’s episode. And in this interview, we talk with Jerry Altamirano. He’s the outgoing Assistant Dean at the University of Florida, Dean of Student Affairs and director of the Disability Resource Center, and we have a conversation with him that really unpacks a lot of the terms and concepts that are used in having conversations that are regarding equity, diversity, intersectionality, he really does an excellent job of setting the stage of what this conversation looks like what the social cultural normative, added today about disability, from his perspective are, how do we impact those social cultural normative attitudes as people with disabilities, what we can do as people with disabilities, to protect ourselves from those negative social, cultural and normative attitudes, and how to really live a meaningful and happy life, despite and perhaps does not be in the world that we would want it to be, but certainly a world that we can help to impact and shape. But it starts with us. So I really look forward to you hearing this interview. And very excited.

Gerry Altamirano  02:26

Sure, thank you so much for inviting me to speak with you today. Tony, always appreciate our chats. Man, my name is a little bit hard to say my name is actually Geraldo Altamirano. But if you can’t roll your R’s, you can call me Jerry. I currently do serve as the Assistant Dean and Director of the Disability Resource Center at the University of Florida. However, I will be transitioning from my role in the New Year in 2021. You know, I feel like it’s a time for new beginnings and new opportunities. So I’m going to explore a career in diversity consulting with an amazing firm called tangible developments where all I’ll lead sort of inclusion strategy, so really continuing my work with an advancing access and equity initiatives within higher education and broadening that into other organizations, and the nonprofit public and private sector as well. So, um, that’s a little bit about my sort of professional identity. I am a first generation Mexican American queer Latinx, ChicanX disability ally coconspirator, I would describe myself as. Originally from Texas and have had a sort of a career in interrogating social inequities and working towards advancing opportunities for historically underserved and oppressed groups. That’s how I would describe sort of myself. So it’s starting out from teaching first grade and and working with dual language Spanish speaking students then pursuing sort of Graduate Studies in rehabilitation clinical counseling, and working with folks in the supported employment sector helping folks with disabilities acquire gainful employment, doing evaluations of and then moving into sort of higher education administration within Disability Services. So previously worked at Texas State University where I am predominantly worked with Latin ex Hispanic community, and helping students understand, employability and understand how their disability may impact their their, their engagement with with academics and then and then post grad as well. And then most recently moved to Gainesville back in 2017, to to work at UF and it’s been fantastic here. I love my experience. There’s so many brilliant students and that’s where I was able to connect with CIL and I really believe in disability communities across sort of areas working in partnership, so whether it’s higher education and in the Gainesville community and or other areas. So that’s how you and I sort of got connected. So that’s a little bit briefly about me. And again, I’m excited to to speak with you today.

Tony Delisle  05:19

Well, your experience explains why you are so wise. Yes, we did meet through you coming on in 2017, the University of Florida, the Disability Resource Center there, we’re gonna provide information and links in our show notes to what they’re all about. And the wonderful things that they’re up to, the staff there is amazing. You work with a great team, Cypress Hall, obviously very innovative residential hall that everyone needs to go learn more about. The Disability Resource Center, I believe at the University of Florida course, I’m biased, as a gold standard out there. And Jerry, so yes, coming from the University of Florida, myself over here to the Center for Independent Living, I did how already know many of the people there that the Resource Center before you got there, the center, before I got here, already had a relationship with the DRC. So this relationship was here before you and I got here. And we really I think, have helped to build off of that. And I remember when you first got here, and I would, I think our first experiences were largely, you know, we would show up to the same events together, you would have events sponsored by the DRC, there, sometimes I would be invited in to speak or you know, those kind of things. And, and that was great. And then you approached me and said, I want to come to the center there, Tony and take a tour and see what it’s all about there. And I was really happy to hear that. And you came over here and we did a tour and you were just so present and authentic. One of the things that I really took away from that conversation among many of the other things is there was a moment there where you you spoke to me with a very raw conviction and heart about wanting to serve the community. And kind of like as you’re saying, kind of leverage even academic resources, other community based resources to develop the synergy to solve a lot of the difficult issues out there. And I want to acknowledge you for that, like it was like your heart was really speaking. And I really connected with that. A year or two after that passes. And we’re again, you know, kind of here and there seeing each other at events, and we happen to recruit you onto our board, and you’ve been serving on the board of directors for the Center for over the last year. So bonus, we get to, you know, have your brilliant wisdom here to be brought to bear on some of the things that we do here at our center, and opportunity for Tony to have more conversations with Jerry and learn more and be a better person through those kinds of experiences. Then, this past spring, in May and June, a lot of the events of the you know that we’re going on, that we’re really pushing to the forefront through the police brutality of people really brought to the forefront, and amplified a lot of the things that we’d already been talking about, you know, in terms of Equity, and Diversity and disability, and all these other kinds of things really was highlighted. So due to that amplification, the Independent Living network, started a workgroup, an organic workgroup, volunteer base, started meeting bi weekly to really take a look at where we’ve been, where we are, where we want to go in terms of equity, diversity, intersectionality, and all these things that are so very important. And we need to take action about not just give lip service to and we’ve been meeting, you know, since basically end of June, July, and having conversations and you’ve shown up in these conversations, and have just dropped pearls of wisdom that has really helped to guide our efforts in this workgroup and the lens that we’re working through to really reflect and research a lot of these areas so we can learn and do better. In all of that work. There’s a lot of terms, there’s a lot of context in which conversations are have, there’s a lot of conceptual frameworks around this discussion that’s had, I was wondering if you can help us unpack for many people that might not be around this conversation, or new to this conversation. Or even that, you know, for myself, I’ve been around this conversation for a while, but I’m still continuing to learn and have a long way to go myself in learning a lot of these things that I think are just fundamental to be in the conversation. So I was wondering if you could help us you know, unpack, you know, some of the things that we need to know, in order to have a meaningful, authentic and real conversation that’s going to help us learn and help us be better.

Gerry Altamirano  09:29

Sure thing. Yeah, I think it’s really important to sort of zoom out and really, and really understand what it is that we’re talking about. Think, you know, diversity, equity inclusion, these terms are often used interchangeably, but they are not the same. They don’t mean the same thing. Right? Um, so there’s always this really great analogy that I that I like to use and so diversity asked who is sitting at the table, right? Whereas equity asks who is trying to get a seat at the table but cannot. Meanwhile, inclusion asks whether everyone sitting at a table has had a chance to be heard. And finally, Justice asked whose ideas will be taken more or less seriously, because of who is represented at the table. So justice really means is more into power dynamics and and these these isms sort of that exist social stratification that puts people in different hierarchies, right. But diversity work has to connect race consciousness, which is an awareness that race has a significance in shaping people’s life chances, which includes our access to opportunities, resources, and decision making, right? So diversity means really seen everybody for who they are. racially, they’re their disability identity, perhaps, or gender, and sexual identities as well. So diversity really asks us to recognize the individualism of each person. Because we know that our social identities and how we are sort of situated politically, socially impact our opportunities to engage in certain spaces and receive access to resources, I think for for you and I, who do work specifically with, with disabled communities, equity is really important, right? equity, equity, situates, the reality that we are born at different starting lines, and our abilities and our access is not equal, right. So equity centers the unique needs of every individual. And, and understands that, you know, someone might need a certain adaptive technology to be able to, to engage in a way that that works for them. And, and, and whereas somebody else may not need that adaptive technology, right. So I think folks often get stuck in the idea that equal is what we should be based basing our work on, or equality is what we should be basing our work on or, or our decisions when it comes to, you know, social progress. But the idea of equality is moreso of a fallacy, because we know that we’re not equal in the sense that we don’t have access to the same resources. You know, our social and political conditions are different. generational wealth is different. Um, so we are equal in the sense in the sense that we all possess an inherent human integrity and value and dignity that that that we must uphold. But, but our access to, to resources or to engage in certain spaces is not equal. So that’s why we have to sort of situate and contextualize equity. And in doing that, we have to understand that things don’t exist in a vacuum. Right? There’s a there’s a, there’s a historical and political story around everything. And so that means really us asking really critical questions and interrogating Why is is that that we do the things that we do and, and and what are things that we’re sort of replicating and reproducing that are rooted in something really harmful? Yeah.

Tony Delisle  13:42

So you said a lot there. I’m trying to take notes as you speak here. One of the things I wanted to ask you, I’m going to go back to the table. What if, you know, a group or a person is not at the table? Seems as though the people at the table have the power to invite people to the table? How do people who don’t have that power or influence or know the people at the table get invited to the table when they don’t even know the people at the table?

Gerry Altamirano  14:09

That’s right, yeah, that’s exactly right. So that it takes it takes folks who are in positions of power, takes folks who recognize our privilege to to yield their privilege and, and invite others to the table. Right. And through that, that means taking a taking a step back, and relinquishing a little bit of control. That’s the thing about equity work, right. In order for us to be equitable, you have to give something up or somebody has to give something up. that’s a that’s a piece that we don’t often connect. Um, so I mean, just like Thanksgiving dinner or or any sort of celebration, right. The more people you invite to the table, the more you have to sort of ration and and divide the pie. But that’s what makes it right. But it takes folks in positions of power to recognize, hey, I don’t know if I should be really leading this space that is connected to enhancing services for for Black folks in my community, when I’m not, I’m not African American, or identify as Black and I don’t have sort of that experiential knowledge. So let me invite somebody to help lead this initiative, right? Someone who, who, who understands that. And so, yes, everybody, especially, especially as I think we are the most, we and I, I speaking, we in the collective You and I, who engage in this sort of disability advocacy work, inclusion work, and others, like us, who, um, something within us, there’s this sort of sense of service leadership or do good or wanting to sort of impact social change, right? Something whether we’re personally connected to having a disability or know someone who has a disability or, or any other sort of marginalized identity, or like myself, and am a member of another oppressed group, right. Um, we sort of want to engage in this work, but we’re not above falling into this sort of same same trap of not seeing how we also have privileges and how we may have, there’s just so much oversight into, into how we approach our equity work, right. Um, I think I think folks have, like, for example, people in healthcare fields, who have this sort of altruism, our sense of doing good to other for others, sometimes blocks, our ability to accept the possibility that we have internalized biases, and prejudices that impact how we view others and ultimately impact our job. Right. So I, I have to constantly interrogate and check myself, and I encourage others who do this equity work, inclusion work to do the same is to, we often believe that because we’re sort of engaged and part of this, this effort that we are maybe impervious to, to having biases, are our internalized really harmful ideas about other groups, right, whether it’s, you know, anti-Black racism, or, or even ableism or or, or an approach to disability inclusion, that that is sort of rooted in something that’s more harmful, like, like charity work, or sort of this sympathy approach to our work, right? So there’s, there’s just a lot of caution that we have to have, and, and interrogating, why are we doing the things that we do? And how can I do it in the most in the way that that maintains the human dignity of the people that I that I’m that I’m serving and working in community with? And also how am I interrupting the the reproduction of oppressive practices or policies or bureaucracies in the work that I do? That’s so tough, especially for for us in this in this work.

Tony Delisle  18:32

Sure. So in going along with that, in self interrogation, you know, goes back to the question, so I am at a table, I do come from the health field, I would like to believe… No, no, no, I’m not taking it as defensively at all I’m checking all the boxes are confirming what you said like and very altruistic and lead with my heart often recognize I have these blind spots. And so who is it I’m not inviting to the table, that I should be inviting to the table thinking I am inviting all the right people and you know, things and everything else like out there, I find I do have to interrogate myself as you put it. For me, it involves being very conscious of my thoughts and stepping out of my stream of thoughts. And being an observer of those thoughts and listening to those thoughts and not necessarily being attached to those thoughts in terms of thinking I am those thoughts, I am observing those thoughts at this point. And for me, it’s a bit of a mindfulness approach to it, but also a big check your ego approach, you know, to think that, you know it all, I’ve arrived, I’ve got this, you know, into me, that could be the most insidious thing that’s inhibiting growth is those of us that are, you know, doing this thing, but thinking that like we’ve arrived to a destination, an awareness that we got this and therefore don’t have these blind spots, but we do. To me, so it’s part mindfulness, but also ego checking, big time. And that is hard to do. It’s humbling, you got to be vulnerable, you’re facing some fears, and having to then look at an examine to like, what are the stories I’ve been telling myself about myself, or others, or the way the you know, life is or society is, and really kind of challenge those stories? Where do those stories narratives come from? You know, and so, so, so I’m gonna ask you, what is some of the methods you use to interrogate yourself to make sure that you know, you’re also kind of being aware of your own blind spots that you might have?

Gerry Altamirano  20:38

Yeah. I really appreciate this conversation, Tony, because it’s so easy to right, we’re all human, we’re all shaped by the same social and political conditions, right? So if I’m shaped in a world that is racist, and ableist then guess what, I will internalize prejudices and biases that are abliest and racist. And I have to. And so that’s how I check my ego, right is knowing that. Well, you know, some people are like, Well, I’m not I’m not racist, or I’m not ablist. But we, we are, we are in this, this, um, we’re in the same environment, right? And, and it’s, and it’s natural to sort of adopt these ideas, either, you know, subconsciously or consciously and then enact them. So, I check myself, my ego by one, surrounding myself with really smart people, right? surrounding myself with people who challenge my thinking. There’s this saying, It relates to fitness, and you’re in that that health world today, so maybe you’ve heard it, but I think it’s something like, if you’re the most in shape person in this gym, then maybe you’re in the wrong gym or something like that. It’s along those lines. Yeah, yeah. Right, you’ve sort of mastered or you think that you’re, you’ve figured it all out. And you’re in the wrong space, you’re now you’re in an echo chamber, or you’re right, you’re like being there because people sort of exalt you, but maybe you need to enter different spaces. Right? Um, and also being community with a lot of different groups, because you might, you know, have a lot of knowledge in a certain space. Like, for example, me Who, who I work with college students with disabilities. College students with disabilities are not the the monolith of the disability community right at large. They’re there, they don’t represent everybody in the disability community. In fact, they represent some of the most privileged folks with disabilities. So if I’m not engaged in with the communities, like those involved with CIL, then then my, my concept of Disability Justice and disability inclusion is distorted and completely warped by by the the constituents that I serve and those that aren’t in community with now, right? Because while they’re thinking about, oh, well, the importance of it acts as an accommodation for physics or an Orgo Chem 2 exam. disabled person, and the CIO community is thinking about how am I going to pay my light bill? Right. So So there there, there are so many different privileges and and access points within each of our groups, right. And so I think having a really global perspective of, of what justice looks like, involves us equity workers, inclusion workers, however, I describe ourselves being a part of all of these different communities and understanding how other social structures and structures and isms impact the work that we do. Right.

Tony Delisle  24:18

So going back to your isms, right there you throughout ableism, I was wondering if you could define for us what ableism is.

Gerry Altamirano  24:24

I like I like sort of illustrating a picture, right? Because I’ve heard folks, folks sometimes get get caught up in in definitions there, which I think are sometimes even just more harmful. Yeah, um, because then then then we’re sort of trying to hold true to a concept and not the connection to that lived impact, right. So I can describe how ableism impacts people. And I think that’s what a lot of people can understand the most because sometimes when we get caught up isms like racism, sexism, classism, all of these isms. And people are like, well, I don’t really know what that means I can’t really define it. And then someone comes in and gives you a definition. And like, well, I still don’t really know. But we are impacts people, right? That’s what’s important. And so ableism impacts folks, by disabled folks, specifically, by creating a society or an environment that, that caters to a default to a certain embodiment, right, a certain lived experience that can easily navigate physical technological spaces. Without sort of a second thought, right. And so it’s, it’s, it’s a devaluation of disabled bodies, whom are maybe just divergent in their embodiment, and not necessarily unable, or don’t have the capacity to, to produce or to perform or to, or to participate in a certain space. But the environment itself is not created for them. It’s not, it’s not considering their diverse embodiment. And therefore defaults to the dominant group, which is the temporarily abled body folks are this this norm, right. And so what happens is that when there is a person with a disability, let’s say a chair user, I’m in an environment where there are no ramps, or there are no us elevators to help them navigate a building, the environment creates the disabling effects of their impairment of their embodiment. And when you exist in a, in a society that sort of defaults and favors, um, the dominant group, those that aren’t chair users, then we fail to, to intentionally design spaces for, for the variation and, and the nuance of so many different people. Right, so then we leave them out, we exclude them. And through that other things happen, right? So we, we sort of become our mirror our attitudes about people, and our ideologies about life, and who has value and who doesn’t become mirrored, and reproduce in our physical spaces and our policies and practices, right? And then, and then our rules of Oh, well, you have to be physically present at work, or you have to, and that who does that exclude right? People who aren’t able to physically transport themselves or who can work remotely and do their job, but so so all of these, these phenomenon that happened are because of the the exclusion of the validation of disabled folks.

Tony Delisle  28:18

So so given, you know, what you said there about how, you know, ableism can really help shape the paradigm of how, like a society may view people with disabilities. And there’s other I’m sure, intersecting forces that are doing the same thing. How would you Gerry describe from your own perspective and lived experiences the social cultural normative attitudes that society has about disability if you had to like your try to explain what you think that is, from your point of view?

Gerry Altamirano  28:55

I mean I think I don’t I don’t even have to philosophically take you through a through my rabbit hole of that, I think, I think we just have to look at at the facts, right. And the facts are that there is such a low employment rate of people with disabilities, right? The facts are that 50% of folks that are killed by excessive police force are people with disabilities who are also Black, right? There. The facts are that people with disabilities often have to jump through so many bureaucratic hoops to to receive services or funds by the government, right. So the sociocultural implications of how we treat people are there or how we treat disabled people specifically are visible. Yeah, right. Yeah, so that, that society does not value Yeah, um, folks who exist differently, right? And that’s that’s what it is. And that really ties into that I think you maybe you’ll you’ll ask me eventually, how to other sort of isms you mentioned earlier intersect with this. And it goes, it goes down to what does society value right? So we’re saying we’re asking ourselves, well, society does not value disabled people. Why? What does society value? Well, ask ourselves, what do we value look at? Let’s look at our, our current, social political interest. We value money, revalue economy, we look, we value production, that’s what our society values and that’s what our society cares about. That’s why folks are in such a rush to return to quote, unquote, normalcy, to reopen businesses and to reopen schools, regardless of what the impact is on human lives. Right? Knowing that over 200,000 folks have died from COVID-19,

Tony Delisle  30:58

300,000 as of now.

Gerry Altamirano  31:02

Again, knowing the facts, we say, Yep, that’s fine, we still need to return to business because we want to make money. So there has to be this other analysis into Well, why do our disabled people, undervalued or? Well, because of capitalism, because capitalism consumes our interest in our priorities, we want to make money. And there’s this belief that, well, folks with disabilities aren’t able to produce as much or able to work as much and and that’s, that’s the most insidious thing of it all.

Tony Delisle  31:38

Yeah, we find that all the time. 

Gerry Altamirano  31:40

Because it suggests that in order for you to have value as a human being, in order for you, to be important to our larger society, you have to be able to make money, or produce or, or, right, that’s what they care is your your, your value is equated to, to your to your output. There’s a lot of isms and systems of oppression that we have to consider as we think about the liberation of oppressed groups of advancing disability rights of events, advancing civil rights, right? Because if we fail to, we don’t really dig deep and understand how, how these these structures impact and sort of reproduce and maintain the oppression of people with disabilities, right, and continue to keep them down, because we’re only talking about disability inclusion, and we’re not sort of invoking and analysis of capitalism or racism, sexism, as we’re thinking about disability inclusion, there’s a lot of things that are left unexamined, that does more harm than good.

Tony Delisle  32:53

Absolutely. And go into those values. It’s, it’s interesting to when capitalistic private for profit, free market does do innovations, because they’re kind of required to make sure they’re accessible for all people disabilities, we find that these kind of universally designed, you know, changes are something other people without disabilities really want as well, and often sometimes can help their bottom line out. That’s one, but to go into your point, you know, valuing, you know, who are we as a country? And what do we value? I think there’s also a kind of contradiction or conflict between the ideals of a meritocracy, you know, the rugged individualism, you know, you got to pick yourself up from your own bootstraps. And then there’s also these other ideals that talk about the Commonwealth, and the common good, you know, of our country. And so there’s a lot of that said with that, too. And so I almost feel like there’s a moral contradiction in there somewhere. And so I don’t know if that is also kind of like something where we can look at, you know, how do people with disabilities really thread that narrative to where we can maybe create a society that’s more just. And also, at the same time, people as individuals, you know, have that ability to fulfill their fullest potential live their lives in, you know, to whatever extent possible, they would want to, I don’t know if you have some thoughts on like, you know, where people with disabilities can really work to thread the needle there in terms of carving out a life or at least advocating for a system that does some of those kinds of things. If you think that is a good way.

Gerry Altamirano  34:35

Yeah. So many deep questions Tony. I think we are so stuck in this matrix that sort of decides what we value right? Not only even our larger social system or our country, but even ourselves, right? Because I think you know, James James Baldwin talks about the law issues with racism in America or is a reflection of the inner turmoil of the individual. Right? And so if our larger country beliefs are only values production, you know, meritocracy, like you mentioned, what what do we individually value? I think sometimes we believe that we believe the hype, we drink the kool aid, and we work towards that, that goal. And and even sometimes, people from marginalized groups oppressed groups to say, Well folks, buy into that narrative, and then internalize these really harmful ideas about themselves and strive for this illusion, which is it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s an illusion that we keep investing, and it’s not real, it’s not real, this idea that in order to be happy, or in order to be fulfilled, you have to be so successful and have everything that you need and be self sufficient. And that doesn’t always bring happiness. And I think when society tries to push people towards this idea of independence, self sufficiency, it fails to really understand what is it that really brings people happiness, and that’s community. And that’s, that’s been with your loved ones and finding purpose outside of your, your job, right? I think, not to get too, too radical, but not everybody needs to work not ever I mean, I believe in leisure and and that, you know, we’ve evolved as a species so much that these technological advancements have allowed us to not have to, you know, have a warehouse of workers or these products, because there’s, there’s machines that do that now, right? So that so we shouldn’t be allowed to engage in more leisure and more pleasure and in rest, rest is radical. But we don’t allow ourselves to because we, but we bought into the idea, and we’re invested in the illusion that we must continue to produce, produce, produce produce, right? We must work, work, work, work work, right? To the point that we almost feel guilty when we’re not, right. We like this sort of dissonance and an uneasiness right. Yeah, when you’re just sitting, and just just breathing and existing, right. And so I think that how disabled folks can and other communities can resist sort of this, sort of use our bodies as as political resistance to this pressure of capitalism, more pressure of production and meritocracy, is to be, and that’d be enough and to find fulfillment and community with within the people that we love. And that in itself is something right. And I think that that’s what I appreciate the most about disability analysis about our place in the world, is that it forces us to, to challenge this superhuman hyper producer, independent superhuman fallacy that we’ve been bought into, right that we want to sort of enhance everything about us, you know, take this new sort of espresso shot that gives you four times caffeine to be able to work more or, you know, all of these to be able to put in or move your eight hour day and to 10 hour, you know, all these things that are harmful to our bodies and to deteriorate us really, and don’t, don’t bring happiness at all. But I think the most insidious part is that we bought into the idea that working, working working brings happiness, so almost almost as if it’s our only way to feel like we have purpose. And that’s not true. That’s not true. Yeah, there’s this really awesome video with Judith Butler and disability activist her last name is Taylor. The Unexamined Life, right, is titled. They talk about how having a disability interrupts this idea of self sufficiency, because it’s not true, we need other people, right? And so, having needing a caregiver or needing needing someone to, you know, help you with your daily activities, or, or what have you, or to read a document or anything, is the most accepting that right, is the most human thing that we can do. Because we, we cannot exist without having somebody to support us or and not even in like the moral and psychological sense but but as a human species, we’re social. So So this, this push this constant push to be independent and to self produce and self sustain is sort of antithetical to the idea of, of humanity, right? And that’s why we see a lot of changes in mental health and happiness and and how people sort of gauge their own self efficacy because It’s like the self reliance is is the goal? And I don’t believe it is. So going back to your question, how do we challenge this, the more that we can rely on others, and be interdependent, that would be the goal, the more that we can build co Ops, and hey, Tony, you grow your carrots in your garden, and I’ll grow the tomatoes. And we’ll share that the more we build those kind of spaces, where we rely on each other, that’s how we resist.

Tony Delisle  40:45

You’ve pretty much answered our, our closing question, there like, what do you think about independent independence, and again, I learned so much from you every time you share with us and and, you know, as I’ve shared with you before, in talking about this, Stephen Covey, Seven Habits of Highly Successful People does talk about this, he talks about, you know, the lowest form is dependent, of being the next the highest would be independence, but the highest is interdependence with one another, that symbiotic we can do more, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. And from an evolutionary standpoint, and when they examine the evolution of human beings, and I love what you say about can we just be human beings, not human doings, right. And so I think it goes to your point of like, just be in the present moment and exist, and there’s a lot of fulfillment there. And so, from an evolutionary standpoint, many people point to the fact that we are wired, evolutionarily to work together, because that is the way we survived. We are not the strongest animal out there, we are not the most, someone’s even say, not the smartest, they throw us out there, you know, in the elements and see how long by ourselves, we will survive, we won’t, we need each other, we’re wired to belong to one another. And now, you know, after 1000s of years of evolution, here we are, we still these primal needs, the human brain hasn’t evolved since many of those times. And so we still have this need for connection. For belonging, the biggest fear we have is rejection, and our biggest need is acceptance. And so I think there’s so much that you said there that goes towards what you say to is fulfillment, you know, how many people do you know, that are quite wealthy materialistically have the, you know, alphabet soup after their name, the athletic trophies or accolade, and the greatest social networks and everything else out there, but when you get to know them, they’re not happy, they’re not fulfilled? You know, society’s told us, you know, we need to accomplish these things in order to be successful value, but and one of the things that we’re aiming to do with this podcast is to really what does it mean to be the best version of yourselves? What does fulfillment look like to you? What does a meaningful life look like to you? You know, how can you, you know, achieve that? What does it really mean? Are you buying into this narrative, like you’re saying, that society that says that this was what it is, but when we look at, you know, your happiness tends to be something that deep happiness, not the superficial pleasure, kind of happiness, but the authentic joy, happiness, peace, and altruism service to others, is what a lot of people reported on living a fulfilled life. There’s a country out there that instead of a gross domestic product, they have a gross domestic happiness scale, throughout the day with that country, but anyways, I really appreciate you, you know, kind of really illuminating those things there. So, you know, this leads me to that asking you, if you had to talk about, you know, how the what would, you know, ideal, you know, social cultural narrative be about people with disabilities, you know, if we were working towards trying to really have an impact on what that socio cultural narrative is now, given what it is, you know, has been, where we were, where we are today, where would you want to see us really, like move towards impact grow to be if you had almost explained the utopian, you know, is kind of way that, you know, society views and treats and, and really, you know, sees people with disabilities?

Gerry Altamirano  44:17

Yeah. Um, it’s tough, because I think that that sort of, Northstar is always sort of shifting. I think, I think I think our needs shift a lot. Right. And, and I think more so than, and it’s tough, right? Because I think, again, those of us who do who do this inclusion work, I can’t help but feel that part of it. Part of our work, or sorry, part of our essence, is sort of, especially me because I’m a romantic. I am a renaissance man, and I’m a romantic and I have to say Often check my naivete, right. And this sort of delusional optimism, right? That keeps sometimes focus on wanting to change the hearts and minds, right? And sort of Yes, build this new socio cultural narrative or change, change society’s interpretation of certain groups, right? And we know historically that that doesn’t always work, right? So we can pass laws and the ADA or we can, we can work in official ways, right? And people will still not change their hearts and minds. And the narrative doesn’t shift. And people continue to suffer and struggle. So I think more importantly, is how can we constantly connect this sort of theorizing of Gosh, what would the world look like, without these isms? Or to the struggle, we have to connect it to the struggle? Because as you and I sit here and have this, this really sort of introspective and philosophic conversation, there’s disabled folks out there without, you know, food on their table, who are underemployed, and they’re not engaging in these sort of meta conversations. They they want to eat, they want to work, they want to have their basic needs met. Right. So there’s also that conundrum is, is ensuring that we’re always connecting our theorizing, and our ideas of possibility and future into the struggle to the currents of what’s going on on the ground? And how can we make micro changes that will impact the larger system? Right? So how can we impact policies and equitable move towards more equitable allocation of resources within our local or local government? And in our larger government? That’s, I think more of the questions that we need to ask ourselves, because to be frank, as I get older, and move towards more into more, the spaces that champion diversity and inclusion differently. The mirage sometimes stays the same, right? And that we talk about the feel good piece, but the structure does not. And to be to be honest, sometimes I become so cynical that I’m like, Well, you know what, I don’t care if people value me for being queer and brown, or let Latinx I just want to be treated with human dignity. Right? That’s it? Yeah. So and I’m sure you know, then disabled folks. Similarly, you know, some might be like, well, that might be nice if they embrace me and affirm my identities and celebrate my diverse embodiments. But I just want to give them dignity, right? So I think connecting that and pushing one, galvanizing our disability community to know that they have power, and then they have expertise to shift and shape the world as important, right, educating and helping our people, our most oppressed groups, learn how to read the world and interrogate these systems, right? How we should not accept things to be we’ve, we’ve bought into this idea of scarcity. We…

Tony Delisle  48:03

Big scarcity mindset out there.

Gerry Altamirano  48:06

Exactly. So challenging that relying on one another, finding our political voice and using our bodies as political tools. That’s I think more important in changing access and equity now, then then sort of theorizing a new idea of how people should should be regarded because, you know, history tells us that that that doesn’t always work. No we can we can, we can champion this equality chant and take to the streets, but sometimes folks will keep believing what they want. So let’s change our structure to make things more equitable so that we can all thrive and not just survive. 

Tony Delisle  48:45

So Gerry, going to your equity points and and changing hearts in the area I you know, I’ve been working in and putting so much of my research and efforts and heart myself is trying to correct the disparities inequities that exists, whether it’s health, it was primarily health health outcomes, trying to get people to live longer, less susceptible to chronic disease and quality of life or big outcomes, education, getting kids, you know, graduating youth, teens graduated from high school, that’s a big effort here, we do have an employment services program that’s trying to close the gap between the two to three times unemployment rate that’s seen out there, the housing, the transportation, and Centers for Independent Living are really working hard to close those equity gaps. But when I examine you know, the literature in the areas that again, we have so far to go, these gaps are so wide, but in areas where marginalized groups have had those gaps, shortened or equal, there’s still disparity. So for example, if you know a non white person who got their doctoral degree and is at a high socio economic class, and has these certain health behaviors, and someone who is white, doesn’t have a disability has the same health behavior, same sexual economics if controlling for all these variables, the white person is still likely to live longer. The person who is not white, who is has a doctoral degree and has a high socioeconomic status has the same infant mortality rates as some a white woman who graduated high school. And so like even when we control for these equity of outcomes is looking like that still sometimes not enough to close the gaps into these other areas and many of the researchers point towards, well, they’re, you know, experiencing these other kinds of pressures, stigmas, onslaught of perpetual and consistent, you know, social pressures that are leading to having higher blood pressure and having all these other kinds of things, you know, and then shorter lives. That, to me points towards, this may be a issue of the heart, that the people’s attitudes and beliefs of the narratives that they’ve bought into are culminating in this collective that’s really damaging people. And education is needed, but not sufficient. And so how do we change hearts? But, you know, that’s such a complicated thing, you know, like will we ever fully arrive maybe to that day. So for me, what do we have control over? And what do we not have control over is a very important compass in my life to help guide me in doing things. There’s a quote out there that says, fear of stigma, is part of the problem of stigma, our fear, and for me, I take that is at an individual level, what I have control over is my fear of how other people see me, society sees me all these other pressures that are coming in, generates a more elevated you know system and stress on me. But my fear that I have, because of the stigma or these pressures, is something I can manage and cope with and address and through vulnerability and humility. And then courage ability to act even though you have those fears is something I do have control over. So if I wait for the day that society gets its attitudes and beliefs about disabilities, right to be happy, and free and peace, good luck, man. Again, I think this is this is an this is an infinite thing. So how do I cultivate this sense of inner peace? acceptance, not in surrendering, like, give up the white flag, but like to the isness of this, that is, is out there? So at an individual level, what do you recommend to people in order to live that meaningful, happy, you know, kind of life given that, you know, likely, in our lifetimes, the social cultural narratives won’t change to the utopian perhaps way that’s out there? What do we do as individuals to help us cope in a healthy way?

Gerry Altamirano  52:33

There’s this really great book by Adrian Marie Brown, it’s called Pleasure Activism. And it says that, once we engage in pleasure and love, we become less willing to accept conditions of oppression. Right? So So once you’re, you’re, you’re in community, and you find things that make you happy, and you’re, you’re embraced by people who love you, but love you and see you not the performance, not the production piece, is not anything that you’re sort of doing. Like our when we put on our suits and go to work or, or whatever, but you. You become less willing to, and you become less willing to accept the pressure, but you become less willing to see others who you love or communities that you love, also be subjugated to to violence and to harm. So I would say that similar to how communities of color, you know, black folks, Latin ex folks have survived oppression for centuries, right? How do we ask black folks in our country who have who have survived violence and racism and, and thrive and experienced joy in the face of adversity? Through through community? Right? That’s powerful. So that’s one of the biggest things that I wanted to do in my time here at UF is to create spaces where students with disabilities can be in community with one another, and start to sort of interrogate their assumptions about ability and their internalized ableism. And who has value and who doesn’t and build community around their identity and their group, just to celebrate one another, right? And I think that that’s powerful. And it does something to you, right? Similarly, when I’m in community with a lot of Latinx folks or in queer folks, it’s healing. I don’t know if we do that enough, or we frame that enough as as important in disabled communities, because there’s just so many other priorities, right? It’s like those basic needs pieces, and food, housing, all these things, and then we don’t get to that other part. And just by virtue of, you know, you might be the only person with a unique diagnoses or impairment in your family. And so then you don’t have others like you who sort of empathize and can understand your lived experience and so that doesn’t ever happen there. So transforming our spaces To embrace sort of this, this radical love, I think is a way to, one heal, and to resist this constant force of oppression that wants to destroy us and keep us out.

Tony Delisle  55:14

So a good way to shield us from the negative impacts of the stigmas and normative attitudes is each other.

Gerry Altamirano  55:21

And love, abundant love.

Tony Delisle  55:24

Unconditional love is a very tall calling for us. And I think it’s one that we’re meant to really try to work to achieve and embrace in our life. And that’s where again, I think it really is a hard issue because I really like what you said about being in those circles where they see you and not the facade of you. Again, this goes back to ego who is who is it we’re presenting out to the world? Yeah, and it’s usually the superficial ality, you know, kind of things, but who are, you know, the you the self. And it’s usually a false solidity of a self, a subjective self. A self that’s based on all kinds of stories that need to be examined. Yeah, and perhaps rewritten. So I really love what you say about like, when people can really see you. And the real you, and there’s a lot there of what what is the real you, you know, so I love having those kind of thoughts and conversations. So thank you for bringing that up as well. You know, and as you’re saying this, you know, and so, you know, I am privileged to be able to be in a space right now to have this conversation. And I realized that, you know, kind of, as you said, mentioned earlier, if I’m struggling to meet my concrete needs, you know, of safety, you know, security, you know, where’s my next meal coming from? Do I have a roof over my head? How am I able to care for others that are, you know, in my charge, and I can’t do those kinds of things. We put on a seminar, kind of a talk for people with disabilities, our consumers. And the topic was, you know, intersectionality, and you’re talking about micro macro aggressions, and when we advertise it, and no one came. And I asked people, you know, like, I yeah, we had this thing was to kind of, it’s like, Man, I’m just trying to make it, I’m just trying to survive the day. So I really appreciate what you said, I almost see it as a kind of a Maslow hierarchy kind of thing. So like, once we can meet a lot of these different kind of concrete needs. The next is sense of belongingness, you know, that’s in there. And then it works towards self actualization. And, and that’s self actualization, through being able to have your needs met, to feeling a sense of belongingness to a group is that fulfillment and abundance in life and unconditional love is there. And Maslow says that self actualized people are free of the good opinion of others, free of the good opinion of others. And I think that goes back to kind of what you’re saying about like, perhaps our egos, and those kind of things, and, you know, having conversations that might challenge our ego challenge our identity, especially if that’s who we think we are, you know, these kind of things. I’m setting up a question here to say that in all things that go into having conversations about diversity, and race and equality and justice, there can be a lot of reservations on people because it can make people feel uncomfortable, and going into those spaces. And again, I’m tying this back to our identity and perhaps egos being threatened and challenging our our stories and our narratives and our perspectives and our way of thinking. How do we enter into those conversations with people that, and I’m including myself in here that can be, let’s just say fragile? You know, and there’s a fragility among some of us in having these conversations, who want to do the right thing, but are scared to say the wrong thing. What should we do, you know, in terms of meeting people, where they’re at having those conversations, but also knowing that we need to feel uncomfortable, that’s where the growth happens. So what do you think about you know, trying to make the discussion, one that calls everybody in instead of out? 

Gerry Altamirano  59:00

You know, I think that different groups have different different strokes for different folks, right? And you we all have things that we need to work through. Right? I think that we sometimes want to approach diversity conversations from, intersectionality conversations with let’s get everybody together and let’s just unpack ourselves. Maybe we can work towards that but maybe that doesn’t start like that. Right? Maybe it’s it’s you pull in three other friends who are in a similar identity as you and saying, Hey, you know, I’ve been thinking about, you know, my role with disability or my role in equity work and, and I’d love to just for us to talk and want to hear your perspective. Because then it’s, it’s less also, one less taxing and harmful, often on the most depressed person because they’re the ones doing the educating. They’re the ones sort of leading the discussion and sort of helping the most privileged I understand how it impacts them. Right? So I think there’s a lot of self work that needs to happen for self reflection. It’s sort of like a smaller caucus. So I think like if we’re talking about racism work anti anti black racism, you have to have sort of white folks get together and y’all discuss your stuff and the history of white supremacy in this country and and how does it make you feel and how do you perpetuate racism and and and then saying, Okay, well, how can we be allies or co conspirators in this work? And asking communities of color? Well, what do you need from us? And how can we participate in and listening to that, and being okay with saying, We don’t need you now, maybe you won’t eat them up, or this is the ways that we need you. That’s it. So again, knowing that we’re not saviors, we’re not saving anybody. You can’t even save ourselves half the time, right? So approaching this from a place of solidarity and humility, that allows you to, to also see yourself as an oppressed person. Apollo Fairey talks about, like, what do we need in order to liberate oppressed groups, we need the oppressor to participate with the most oppressed and recognizing that there sort of liberation and salvation is dependent upon the liberation of, of those that they’re oppressing. Right, oftentimes. Same thing with like, disability work, I don’t see myself as separate from the disability community. In fact, you know, my embodiments would, you know, classify myself as as having a disability. I, you know, obviously, visibly, I’m very able bodied. And so when I approached this work, I could easily sort of frame my involvement in this work as separate from or privileged or server or doing good for others, rather than working with and listening to what is needed and being a co conspirator in the fight for justice. And I don’t see myself as separate from because I can’t. If I do, the minute I do, I’m not useful, really, you know, I have to see my freedom and liberation interconnected. And with those that I’m that I’m working in communion with.

Tony Delisle  1:02:06

You know, if you have some skin in it, yeah, you’re likely will be more of a contributor, and co conspirator.

Gerry Altamirano  1:02:12

Closing, sign off from me is that, in order for us to reach any sort of progress in equity work, we have to see ourselves as an active agent in the fight, and co conspirator in the work towards liberation.

Tony Delisle  1:02:31

Well, Gerry, you know, no way, anyone that seen this can see what I meant at the beginning, where every time like you share words and perspectives, you know, definitely challenges and expands my perspectives. And so I really appreciate you, I want to acknowledge, you know, in some of the work that we’ve done together as a recent year, you really helped to broaden my perspectives on how we approach things I know, with our workgroup, we might I’m wired to say all right, we got this group together, let’s start making you know, mission statements, visions, goals, objectives, what are our values? And you really, you know, helped us to say, well, let’s wait a minute here you all are still doing the good work, let’s let’s take some time to reflect. Everybody coming into this group is coming in from different places and different, you know, starting line so to speak and understandings and, and that was really helped us I think a lot and and, you know, your perspectives on independence. And being more about interdependence is definitely, you know, kind of a really great point of view that I think we need to in the independent living movement to really acknowledge as well and see where that place may be in the independence because it doesn’t mean that people without disabilities are interdependent, I mean, so. So that’s another place that you’ve really helped illuminate all kinds of things. And so I just want to acknowledge you, I really appreciate your mind, your heart, your spirit. So happy to have crossed paths with you and look forward to continuing these conversations. You know, knowing that you’re no matter where you go, whether you’re here in Gainesville, or to your next venture, wherever you go, it’s going to be better because Gerry was there and involved. So Gerry, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for coming. And thank you, everyone for for listening and tuning in, and we wish the best for you. And onward and upward.

Gerry Altamirano  1:04:23

Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate you, Tony.

Amy Feutz  1:04:29

Thanks for listening to The Independent Life podcast brought to you by the Center for Independent Living of North Central Florida. If you like what you hear, please rate review and subscribe. And if you know anyone who might benefit from listening, share this podcast and invite them to subscribe to for questions, suggestions, or if you have a story you’d like to share, please email us at cilncf@gmail.com or call us at 3523787474. Thanks for joining us. Until next time, support, advocate and empower each other to live the independent life.

Linda Butler is the Director of Employment Services at the Center for Independent Living. Her team works to provide a wide array of different types of services to ensure people with disabilities can find meaningful and sustainable employment. So much goes into a meaningful and independent life in terms of our ability to be employed. Linda discusses these services and why it is important that we focus on ensuring that people with disability are meaningfully employed.

Find your local Florida office of Vocational Rehabilitation: http://www.rehabworks.org/

https://open.spotify.com/episode/1LtxBJ6wKcR2QcbweoKBFC

SPEAKERS: Linda Butler, Tony Delisle

Tony Delisle  00:50

And welcome back to another episode of The Independent Life. And today we are going to be talking about the four letter word, work. Which is a beautiful thing. You’re setting the context for this conversation. I’m going to be talking today to Linda Butler, who’s the Director of the Center for Independent Living’s of North Central Florida’s Employment Services. And Linda has an extensive amount of experience in getting people with disabilities employed into meaningful and sustainable employment. This is one of I consider to be the central pillars for independent living. And it is so important for not just, you know, monetary reasons, but for so many others that I look forward to having discussions about. But one of the things that is going on right now is because of the COVID pandemic, and we’re recording this in December, jobs have been shed at a rate not seen in my lifetime. And since the Great Depression many say. And so this is an issue area work employment, that is always important, as is always relevant. But now more than ever, in this area, we’re facing so many different changes and dynamics that we’ve never seen before. And of course, as we’ve mentioned, another podcast crisis means that there’s opportunity as well. And so that’s also very exciting. And so while it is always challenging and important for Independent Living, to find employment for people with disabilities, it is particularly now during this time, that that importance is very underscored. And I think many people who perhaps don’t even have disabilities can really relate to the importance of, you know, finding, and sustaining employment. So I’m very excited to talk to you today, Linda, so you can share with us some of the wonderful things that you do and how you do it, and how people can get involved. But some would like to start with first, you know, asking you, you know, why is employment services so needed?

Linda Butler  02:54

Well, I think that people with disabilities in general face more challenges. They may be having gaps in work history, you know, they haven’t been able to work for a while. And employers really look at that negatively. So we have to overcome that somehow, people have been out of work for a while. Also, they don’t understand necessarily, these new online applications. This is not necessarily real new, but maybe new to them. And it’s complicated. It’s not like filling out a paper application anymore, and just submitting it. Online applications have assessments with them in so many different aspects, that if you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re faced with a big challenge. Other things like interviews, going into an interview, somebody who is deaf. I had somebody call me one day and said, I’m going to an interview today and the employer doesn’t want to hire an ASL interpreter. And that’s a big issue, you know, do we challenge that employer and that person then doesn’t get the job because the employer doesn’t want to be challenged? You know, what about somebody with a verbal issue, they go into an interview and the employer comes out going I don’t really know the skills because the person couldn’t convey it. It’s important for us to be there to help out in these situations to ensure that the employer understands the abilities that that person has and and the ability to perform those positions regardless of the fact that they may have a disability. And it’s more important now you know, we have COVID a lot of businesses are challenged themselves, you know, trying to keep up. So there are less and less opportunities out there. So it’s it’s more of a necessity right now I think to receive and get help to get through that process of gaining the employment and, of course, then there’s keeping the employment too. But you know, we’re here to, we’re here to help, we’re here to guide people to give them the tools to help them out, I think it’s something that is very useful, you know, to come to a program like this to succeed.

Tony Delisle  05:12

Absolutely. And you bring up so many good points in there. And that started out mentioning all the different aspects that are needed in order to acquire a job, you know, just finding the job, you know, applying for the job, interviewing for the job, there’s so much that goes into that, and that has evolved in short order over the last 10 years. And it’s changed certainly a lot since, you know, I was looking for work 30 something plus years ago, and how it was then to look for jobs and versus now and all the other things that can go into it and the nuances and, and your job is to find people’s jobs, and your you will get a lot. Yeah, yeah, to assist, I find that to be one of the most noble professions that I have come across. And I come from the background of teaching, which I have an immense respect for teachers in the area of public health, and people that try to promote healthier lives for people. I gotta tell you, the amount of respect that I have for yourself, and your staff and others who work to assist people in getting employment is up there with those professions in my regard, my respect. I remember when I, the times where I was looking for jobs, you know, I just thought to myself and looking for a job is a full time job. You know, when you have the amount of people with disabilities that you and your staff are working with, I mean, it is a lot of people that you’re trying to find sustainable employment for. That’s a heavy lift, that’s a big lift. And it’s an important lift, because people with disabilities have an unemployment rate that is consistently two to three times greater than the unemployment rate for people without disabilities, no matter how good the economy’s doing, it’s always two to three times greater. And before COVID, our unemployment rate for people with disabilities was around 7.5%, compared to 3.5% for people without disabilities, the unemployment rate now for the general population is around that 7%. And it’s double now around 15%, for people with disabilities, and my fear is is that that gap could widen. We’re trying to figure out ways of closing that gap. And certainly you are on the frontlines of doing that. Again, I just really respect the why, behind why you all are doing what you’re doing. It’s such valuable and important work.

Linda Butler  07:24

it’s important for people, you know, in general, people out of work, you know, their standard of living goes down. They lose social interaction, a lot of people identify themselves and their self-worth with the job that they hold. Now they don’t have it. Take somebody with a disability who already be isolated, or have low self esteem, and put into that same situation where they don’t have a job, I think it’s even more important for them to get help to be able to have gainful employment. And you were talking about COVID, and how that relates to what’s going on right now. Even how we interview right now, we’ve had to learn the art of Zoom interview, and help people because it’s different, even in this past year, how it’s developed in interviewing and different aspects. So it’s more necessary than ever to, you know, to get support and get that help.

Tony Delisle  08:24

It is those things change so quickly how the technology is changing the way that people get interviewed, because of the pandemic, you know, usually accommodations that are needed for these changes are usually lagging behind. So it’s great to have people like yourself who are so keen on what those accommodations might be as something that is rapidly getting disrupted and changing so quickly. Sometimes there’s accommodations for what is needed to make sure that everybody has access to the those changes, is lagging. And it’s great that you all on the front lines and can catch that and be working with people to make sure that they don’t get you know, left behind. 

Linda Butler  08:58

Yeah, and we found that there have been some ups and downs through this past year. But overall, with our help, we’ve been able to help a lot of people in it, and it really hasn’t slowed down that much for us. We’re really happy that hasn’t happened and hopefully yet, we hope it doesn’t happen in the future, you know where it gets to that point, but we’re still doing pretty good at you know, reaching out there and getting people connected.

Tony Delisle  09:27

Well, that says a lot about the relationships you’ve had with our community well ahead of the pandemic. Yeah, having those relationships with employers and knowing the the areas in the fields and people that you’ve already placed in probably past time. So in working with our consumers, I’m sure has really helped during this time, you know, as well. One thing I want to go back to that you just mentioned is also people in their jobs, in their identity and kind of their self worth, you know, having something meaningful to do and social interactions. Again, going back to the why employment is so important. Certainly for paying rent, for food, for cost of living, or having the money, you know, just to get the bare necessities met, it is tied into our identity. When I meet someone for the first time, I’m often asked, “What do you do?” In most times their meaning work, you know, or school or whatever it is. 

Linda Butler  10:24

Well that’s how we answer. 

Tony Delisle  10:25

It is, right? It’s just so a part of like, our identity, you know, I’m not usually answering it saying, you know, I’m a father, or I’m a son, I’m an uncle. Yeah, you know, not answering necessarily that. And so as a society, and as a culture, it is something that we even identify others on in right or wrong, sometimes place value on those different types of professions. But it really does, I think, say something about our self esteem and our self worth, when we, you know, are contributing to an organization or a business, you’re usually it’s a mission of value that’s bigger than any one person not always feels good to have that kind of a purpose and direction. So…

Linda Butler  11:05

Yeah, I have a consumer who, you know, we’ve worked with for a while to apply for jobs to interview to, all the way through getting a job. And a lot of times she was just feeling down, like, Oh, I don’t know if I can do this anymore. This is this is just too much. But once she got that job, and what that job instilled in her, you know, that confidence, you just see just kind of a joy that I did it. And, you know, this is this is what I wanted to be doing. And now I’m here, you know, it is priceless, it’s, that’s what we want to see. We want to see somebody to the point where you know, they can overcome, you know, all of this doubt, you know, have something in their life, like everybody else does to give it meaning. That’s really great.

Tony Delisle  11:54

It’s wonderful when you can you kind of marry your work with your life’s purpose too, like, you’ve always had a dream of doing this in this field in this area, because it really fuels your fire, and you’re able to do it and you’re able to get paid to do something that you love to do. Yeah, that’s awesome. It’s really beautiful. Not many people can always say that, certainly working here at the center. And I can tell you really enjoy and love what you do. It is wonderful, it’s empowering. And then it bleeds over into other areas of your life, you’re a happier better person, it means you’re happier, better family member friend are more willing to help out others in need and, and to share some of some of that satisfaction that you have. And perhaps even like you said, gives confidence in one area. And then if I can do this, what else can I do? Right? And put yourself out there and try new things and hopefully lift others up as well. Yeah, that’s, that’s wonderful to see, you know how people with disabilities can really just benefit from employment. How do you see, you know, the other the other side of this coin is like you’ve been mentioning as employers, right? And so oftentimes, employers will interview someone with a disability, and will see the limitations perhaps what they can’t do, not necessarily what they can do and their strengths. Again, that’s tied into sometimes you know, how we identify other people. What are some of the things that you and I have worked with trying to educate employers awareness, breaking some myths and all these other kinds of things. When you talk to employers? What do you tell them about the benefits of hiring people with disabilities?

Linda Butler  13:40

Well, I think there’s a lot of benefits. I mean, people with disabilities because of what they’ve had to overcome, sometimes adapt better to changing situations. And they also bring alternate viewpoints, new ideas, fresh ideas, to solve problems that employers may be facing. It also improves morale. I think there’s been studies out there that if you have a person with a disability, working with you, it increases morale. I’ve seen some of this as well, you know, working with people on the worksite and seeing the people around them. We have this one girl who just blows everybody away by how she focuses and just does her job so well and quickly, and everybody’s like, Whoa, she’s Look at her. She’s so good. And then that kind of motivates them too Well, she can do I’m gonna do it too. Oh, yeah, right, exactly. So I think there’s those kinds of things but we also talk to employers about the Work Opportunity Tax Credit, they can get credit for hiring and keeping on a person with disability. There’s also the disabled access credit, which for any of the expenses they incur in accommodations, they can use some of the app for under the disabled access credit. So I mean, there are really numerous benefits. If you’re an employer, and you have customers coming in, if they see somebody like somebody with a disability working with them, the employer kind of gets a boost in credit for, you know, what they’re doing. You know, they’re, they’re helping their community or, you know, being open. If somebody with a disability goes into that store and sees somebody like themselves, there, they’re more likely to stay with that employer. I mean, there are a lot of different benefits for hiring somebody with a disability,ou know, working working here at the center, and with all centers, requiring that the staff and board over half have a disability in our center, I think it’s more like two thirds, you know, you and I get to see day in and day out what it’s like to work in an organization that is such a high prevalence of people with disabilities, like you said, the adaptability, there are challenges that we’re working with. So natural for many of our staff to be, you know, oh, this is how we adapt, we’re going to, you know, kind of look at the challenge, look at the barrier, understand it and look at all the different ways that we can adapt to it and get around it, get through it, get over it, and all these other wonderful things and do it with such enthusiasm, and such with the natural knack to do something like that, because that is kind of how we’re built and wired now is to see, okay, we’re used to this, we’re used to barriers and limitations, but it’s not a, you know, Roadblock, it won’t stop us, we’ll get through it. And we’ll do it with a good attitude. And because it’s kind of something that you know, we’ve gotten over or moved on with, or that’s just naturally how we are in that confidence and that enthusiasm, and that is infectious. I love that you mentioned that because I feel honored enough to work in an organization that has that type of diversity inside of it. And that’s wonderful. Yeah, that’s one of the greatest things about working here is is the diversity here. I think that for employers who have diverse populations, it’s the same thing that their employees really appreciate. You know, where they work so much more.

Tony Delisle  17:10

It creates a nice safe space, and people can be themselves and, and like you said that people in the community, see a piece of themselves are reflected back into them, it’s always a wonderful thing. And to see those kind of benefits that can come from employers. So one of the things that, you know, maybe that we can really kind of jump into here is, how would people get to know more about the services that you provide? So what is it exactly that you know, someone could expect to receive? If they come here, they’re there, they have a person with a disability, they want to work with the Center for Independent Living? What types of services could they look into, that are offered under the employment services?

Linda Butler  18:06

Yeah, for employment services, we offer competitive employment assistance, supported employment, which is more long term, more intense training on the job. We also have other services like pre-placement training to teach people the skills to become employed. These are things like interviewing skills, and how to write a resume and tailor it to the employer. We also have other services, we do job coaching, whether it’s supported or competitive employment, we can do job coaching, beyond the job with individuals. We have for youth self advocacy, which is another course teaches how to advocate for yourself, which is a really great skill, and particularly for the youth who were just coming out of high school into the real world. Learning how to speak up for yourself is very important. And it’s important even when it relates to jobs. So we have different types of things. We have work experiences for the youth are on the job training, where we can play somebody out in the community, and they can get that experience kind of a real life experience to test out whether this is the place for them. This is the kind of work they want to do. It also gives them the skills to eventually become employed in that type of work. We support people also with all of our other services here at the CIL. Anything that they might need, transportation, housing, assistance with getting bills paid sometimes, many of our consumers take advantage of that because you know, not being employed they may not have the ability to you know, meet their bills and we try to help them out with different services as well.

Tony Delisle  20:01

I think that’s one of the beauties of having an employment services baked within a Center for Independent Living, where you have all these wraparound type services that would obviously be needed sometimes if people are looking for employment, they, they might also be needing appropriate housing, they may need transportation, there may be other types of skills too, and that they’re looking for information and referral and, and all these other wonderful things that can get wrapped around into the people that you’re you’re working with. And, you know, so I love that you do the pre employment training, the advocacy, the on the job trainings that are offered, as you mentioned, you know, especially with youth transitioning from high school into post secondary life, the different supports that are there for people to find jobs as well. That’s fantastic. So if people wanted to get enrolled into these services, how would they go about doing that?

Linda Butler  20:54

Well, we’re a vendor with vocational rehabilitation. So they would call their local vocational rehabilitation office and go through the process of vocational rehabilitation, and they can ask for Center for Independent Living services for employment, come back to us, and we can help them out.

Tony Delisle  21:13

Great. Yeah, and we can put it in links into the show notes here about how to get in contact with the Florida Department of vocational rehabilitation, how to find your local office that’s around town. And so how you can meet with one of their counselors to see you know, where the best fit is. And if it’s a center here, we would love to be working with people to find meaningful employment in the community. And you I look forward to having more episodes on the topic of employment and disability, there are so many different areas that we can go into, regarding this topic. And you have so much experience, you’ve spent decades in this area, you’ve worked with so many different types of people of all different types of disabilities, all different types of ages, backgrounds, experiences, talents, interests. What is it that you’ve learned through your work with people with disabilities, that you would like other people to know about?

Linda Butler  22:07

Just that people with disabilities are people. People with all kinds of talents, unique talents, but just people you know, when you meet somebody with a disability, that is a person, take them at that, that’s, that’s what I’ve learned.

Tony Delisle  22:23

I love what you’re saying. For me I received that is kind of tied back into what you were saying earlier is when we see a disability, if it’s visible, we see that first. And there’s so much to a person beyond just the disability. And from my experiences, we’re all more alike than we are different. We have way more in common than we do different. And disability is one piece of that, you know, aspect. And so if you don’t have one, or you do have one, and there’s just so much more that we have in common of this human experience of what it means to be a person, so I appreciate what you’re saying, I’ve received that as a disability. Look beyond it. Yeah, and see yourself in others as well. And, you know, we’re living in a time where we’re looking for more unity, that’s a very important thing to always come back to, I think, is that we have more in common than we do different. And, you know, I think for some reason, we look at our differences, sometimes more. But you know, coming back to home, we’re all more alike than we are different is a very great point we’ll take in the question. We’re asking everybody, you know, as we initiate this podcast, and get into these beginning type episodes, what is to you, Linda Butler, the independent life?

Linda Butler  23:39

I relate to freedom, freedom, to just be. Freedom to get around your community, get around your house. Freedom to make choices, whether they’re good choices or bad choices. Freedom to make it. I just think that if everybody had the same freedoms that you know, it would be awesome.

Tony Delisle  24:02

Freedom, there’s a lot to be said for that. Well, Linda, I want to acknowledge you for so many of the time and effort, your thoughts, your skills, your talent, and your wisdom you put into this job. I’ve seen you dedicate yourself to a point to where you obviously have a lot of heart in what you do. You really care about other people. And you get it you’d work so very hard to lead others, your staff who are wonderful And likewise, are very dedicated and have a lot of hard to find people with disabilities, meaningful and sustainable employment. You’re so creative, too. I wanted to acknowledge your innovation. You’ve come up with like fire college camps, crime science investigation camps, all different kinds of ways of providing very engaging and meaningful opportunities to give people the skills, tools and experiences they need to find this kind of employment. Likewise, in the world of trying to go through all the different hoops that you need to go through, whether it’s administratively, whether it’s in the business community, all these different other moving pieces to your profession, you do with a high degree of skill. And it’s not easy to find someone that has all these different skill sets that are needed to really be blended together to do what you’re charged with doing so well. And so I just wanted to acknowledge you for all those kind of things that you do, and all those different kinds of buckets that are needed in order to integrate into getting people jobs. And so I just wanted to really acknowledge you for all that you do for the consumers. We serve for the Center, for your coworkers and for the community. What you do is priceless. So just want to thank you and acknowledge you for that and your for your staff as well, Linda.

Linda Butler  25:53

Well, I don’t do in a bubble. I have my staff, which are great, and, you know, support from administration too. So it’s not just me.

Tony Delisle  26:03

Well, thank you. Well, again, I appreciate all that you do, Linda, and for those of you that are tuning in and listening, thank you so much, and until next time, onward and upward.

Amy Feutz  26:19

Thanks for listening to The Independent Life podcast brought to you by the Center for Independent Living of North Central Florida. If you like what you hear, please rate review and subscribe. And if you know anyone who might benefit from listening, share this podcast and invite them to subscribe to for questions, suggestions, or if you have a story you’d like to share, please email us at cilncf.org@gmail.com or call us at 352-378-7474. Thanks for joining us. Until next time, support, advocate and empower each other to live the independent life.

Mark Bennett is the Principal of Decision Resources Incorporated, a consulting firm that works with leaders and organizations to help unify the organization to achieve superior results, to earn ethical reputations, and to adopt to the changing environments.

With 25 years of experience, Mark takes on a multitude of roles when working with organizations, from facilitating workshops to strategic consulting, and many different areas including mediation and conflict resolution, decision making, wise planning, and creative collaborations.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/2rhk1VuyHDEqRJBvvkAnIH

SPEAKERS: Tony Delisle, Mark Bennett

Mark Bennett  00:00

It could happen any time. Tornado, earthquake, Armageddon. It could happen. Or sunshine, love salvation. It could you know, that’s why we wake and look out. No guarantees in this life. But some bonuses like morning, like right now. Like noon, like evening.

Tony Delisle  00:37

And welcome back to another episode of The Independent Life I am so very excited about today’s interview, we are going to be interviewing many people throughout our episodes and it is only fitting that the first person that we interview here is somebody that our center has been working with for over the last year and a half. Many people with disabilities lead organizations specifically Centers for Independent Living, which over half of the people that work at the Centers and that are on the boards have a disability. So out of the 15 centers, for example, in the state of Florida here, each one of them has an executive director that occupies the position that I do here at our center. And like myself, many of these other directors have a disability and have to lead organizations and are involved with championing the missions and visions and values of organizations and supporting staff and all these wonderful things. And certainly there’s people with disabilities and all different types of levels of organizations that are leaders. And so our guest today, Mark Bennett is an expert in helping to consult with leaders and organizations. Mark is the principal of Decision Resources Incorporated, which is a consulting firm that helps to work with leaders in organizations to help unify the organization to achieve superior results, to earn ethical reputations, and to adapt to the changing environments that organizations find themselves in. Mark has 25 years of experience in working with private businesses, non for profits, governmental agencies, in universities, international organizations, and he does many different things with them. He facilitates workshops, he helps to be a consultant, a facilitator, many different roles that he can play in working with these organizations, specifically in the areas of mediation and conflict resolution, decision making, wise planning, and creative collaborations. Mark is the author of books that are related to these topics. One book is The Art of Mediation. Another book that he has written is The Fieldguide to Good Decision Making of Values in Action. And he has a book coming out in the winter of 2021, which I’m very excited to dive into, which is Unity By Design: The Architecture of Creative Collaboration. Mark is also got his law degree at the University of Texas where he’s also got graduate experience in the field of psychology, as well. As I alluded to, Mark has worked with us for the last year and a half. And he’s helped us go through the process of creating a strategic plan in which we have strategic goals, which we’ve redesigned our mission statement, which we have created principles and vision statements. And one of the first things that he did and working with us was to ensure that everyone in our organization, 35 people, the board, which is another 10 people, so 45 people collectively participated in this experience, it was not a top down approach, which typically happens in the strategic planning process. This involved everyone throughout the whole process, the whole organization, got to give feedback, participate, and really come up with what we’re very excited about in terms of our strategic plan. And one of the first places that he started with us was in our values, what are our values, he really had us look in the mirror and reflect on who we are who we wanted to be. And that is very core to the identity that we are having been embracing as a center. And so I’m just so very excited to bring Mark here to this podcast for this interview. He’s the kind of person that every time I connect with him, have a conversation with him, I end up leaving, feeling better, wiser, perhaps, than I entered into the conversation so it’s always a treat to have conversations with you and communicate with you and now to actually be able to share this with other people Mark. I’m truly honored to have you on here and to go into conversation with you.

Mark Bennett  04:53

Thank you so much for having me, Tony. I’m looking forward to diving in.

Tony Delisle  04:57

So as we record this November 19, 2020. Here we are in the middle of a pandemic. And in fact today, the news of the day is is that we’ve eclipsed a very grave milestone. Over a quarter million people in our country have been killed due to the Coronavirus. 11 million and counting have contracted the Coronavirus. Our society has been really turned upside down because of this pandemic. There’s also 157 years ago to the date was the Gettysburg Address. In there, obviously, the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln, and today we still are struggling with equity across the systems that are within our society, and is on Front Street right now is a still a major issue that we’re grappling with, as a society. We are, you know, a few weeks after a very controversial election and the landscape, you know, with the politics is very divisive. And so these are this very interesting and uncertain times. So my first question to you, Mark has to do with what do these times mean, for Centers for Independent Living, and other nonprofit organizations?

Mark Bennett  06:15

Tony, let’s start with a simple image, I use this image in some of my presentations. It’s an image of six people on a inflatable boat river raft, and they’re moving down a river filled with boulders and whitewater. And everybody’s in the boat, everybody’s got their life jackets on, they’ve got their helmets on, they got their paddles ready to paddle. And so the first thing about these times is we’re all in the same boat. And we need each other so much. So these kinds of times have so much volatility, and difficulty and novelty, we’re all off our map. And when we’re in this boat, this river that we’re on, we don’t know what’s ahead of us on the river, we don’t know what’s around the next bend, maybe the whitewater is going to be even more dangerous and even more difficult. So so the times are really calling upon organizations and their leaders to unify. And it’s one of the reasons when I worked with your organization and I work with other organizations that I put increasing stress on coming back to the guiding values and principles. Because this is the glue for an organization that will hold it together, no matter how tough the times become. Values and principles endure. Budgets change, political landscapes change, social conditions change, values endure. They’re part of the way you rig the boat and make sure everybody’s in the boat together and is oriented, looking down river with their paddles ready, ready to do their part, you know, no matter what comes around the bend in the river. So that’s the first thing I would observe about the times that we’re in that places a premium for organizational unity, because that’s how you’re not only going to survive, but perhaps even thrive. The Times that we’re in have an acronym that emerged originally from military planners looking at the changing nature of the modern battlefield, but but it’s moved from military parlance into organization and organizational development. And it’s called a V.U.C.A environment, V-U-C-A which means volatile, uncertain, chaotic, and ambiguous, volatile, uncertain, chaotic and ambiguous. So I have some news for everybody who’s listening today. And it’s not news that most of us want to think about. People like to use the phrase, the new normal, there is no new normal, there’s change. But that it’s not just the pandemic, as you mentioned, there racial equity issues, there’s climate change issues, there’s population issues that are cascading in this world, and we’re going to continue to produce change in all of our environments. And if that isn’t enough, we’ve got a layer underneath that the prospect for a level of technological change in the next 10 years. That’s the equivalent of the change in the United States between 1920 and 2020. 100 years of technological change in the next decade. It’s hard to even imagine how that is going to place challenges in front of us and some opportunities. There are some of those technologies that are going to be amazing new things that are going to help us but but just to cope with that level of time. Change has a level of stress and challenge to it as people need to retrain themselves and learn new technologies and how they’re going to affect job delivery and working together. And you now tell me that one of those technologies we’re all living through now, everybody’s got a life on something called Zoom now that many of us didn’t even know existed a little over a year ago. It was some exotic technology that a few people used. And now it’s the way we do business. And that’s all within 10 months. That’s a huge shift. So those are, those are some of my observations. I want to add one more thing in terms of the context. Part of what has helped me work with your group. And by the way, I love to work with mission driven organizations, there’s so much heart in mission driven organizations, when I get a chance to work with a group like yours, it’s a particular pleasure, because I know that people are deeply connected to wanting to do their best to help the people who were waiting for them. So 15 years ago, I had an experience in a strategic planning process that shifted the way that I did the work. I’d done it for a decade before that, and I’ve been doing it in the 15 years since there was a pivot point in my work. And I was sitting in a national laboratory here in the United States working with the senior leadership team. And one of the people on that team happened to have gone to college with someone who’d been become a lifelong friend. And his friend had become one of the leading futurists in the world. And he agreed to fly in for free and do a consultation with this leadership team. And I got to sit in the back of the room and hear somebody who thinks about the future, perhaps as much as anybody on the planet talk about the next 20 years. And this was in 2005. So now we’re 15 years into his forecasts. I still pull my notes out from that session that he did. And he has been spot on in predicting the kind of world, not the specifics, but the general trends and the things that were going to shape the future. And one of the things he said that day has forever changed the way that I think about helping organizations when I work with them. He said leaders cannot predict the future, but they can enable it. And what he meant was that leaders can help organizations prepare to adapt, prepare to be flexible, and ready to work together and shift directions as needed in an uncertain V.U.C.A environment. Because we’re going around the bend in the river and all of a sudden, we’re going to be dealing with a whole new set of conditions, we have to be adaptable and ready to work together, no matter what comes down. So that’s my essential message about the times are saying that CIL and all your sister organizations across Florida and the country, and many other organizations have to really think about how we become more adaptable together, because that’s what’s going to get us through these uncertain times.

Tony Delisle  13:14

You put a lot in there, Mark, I gotta say that, you know, when we look at all these different forces, pandemic, the racial inequities that exist the inequities of people with disabilities in the environment, the population growth, technology, it reminds me of the book by Thomas Friedman, Thank You for Being Late, where he talks about the acceleration as you’re mentioning the acceleration of these forces as they intersect with one another and impact us. And, you know, with that, I’m interested to know, how can organizations like Centers for Independent Living, like other community based organizations that serve people develop capacity during these uncertain times and be able to adapt during them?

Mark Bennett  13:58

Well, again, you got to think of adaptive capacity as your compass north, that’s what you’re guiding by how do we become more adaptable. And there there are three fundamental ways. I call them the robust strategies of adaptive capacity. And by robust, I mean, no matter how the environment around you  is going to change. And since you can’t predict it, any one of these strategies is going to help you. And when you put all three of them together, they have a kind of a synergy. So I’ll just name them first. So you’ve got the list in mind, and then we’ll go through them one at a time, and perhaps you can, we can have some back and forth. So the three strategies are unity, and then agility, and then force multiplication. So those are the three strategies. We’ll start with Unity. And then I know you think about this a lot inside your organization. So I want to have a back and forth with you about it. So we’ve already talked about values. An organization needs a really clear value statement because that’s, that’s your unity charter. These are this is these are the things we all agree to, and that we all commit to doing our best to actualize. That’s the first thing. The second thing is something that I’ve worked at CIL, where then I know you have been a big a big proponent of is in order to be unified, it has to be an environment where people all feel that they belong, and people will not feel they belong if the environment isn’t psychologically safe enough. So people get that sense of ownership and belonging when they feel that they can make a contribution, and they can speak up and their voice matters, that they can make a difference. So those are a couple of the major elements of unity.

Tony Delisle  16:10

So when we talk about unity, one of the things that it reminds me of is a quote that often you have in your signature line, in your emails from Helen Keller, you want to share that quote? 

Mark Bennett  16:24

Sure. Well, first of all, I’m a great fan of people who speak from a deep level of lived experience. And Helen Keller, thinking of people, you know, who’ve led the independent living movement, having some big challenges to face. Helen Keller, she’s, she’s a rock star, from my point of view. And she said, alone, we can do so little together, we can do so much.

Tony Delisle  16:51

And that’s where I really, you know, think about unity. And it just seems like even from an evolutionary perspective, people need each other. Like we wouldn’t have survived so long ago, we weren’t necessarily the strongest or the best adapted for the environment, you know, some would debate even the smartest, but what we seem to do as a species was be able to collaborate, to come together to survive. And through the 1000s of years through that collaboration, we have been able to, you know, come over out of a civilization that we have had. And now that there was more concrete, fundamental needs are met, still see collaboration, unity is a huge part of this. Back then, you know, the safety had perhaps do with more, you know, your physical well being, do you have shelter? Do you have, you know, your food, water? You know, are you safe from physical threats nowadays, it seems to be for many people, especially in organizations, is less physical threats. And more, as you mentioned, psychological threats, perhaps that are out there. And creating that safe space for people to feel welcomed psychologically, in an organization, especially as it pertains to unity and unifying the organization together is so important. So what are some of the key elements that you find that are needed to cultivate psychological safety within an organization?

Mark Bennett  18:23

Well, there are several, and one of them is that you need people in positions of leadership. And let me step back and say that I think leadership exists at many levels of organizations, it’s obvious with somebody in your position, you have a very clear leadership title, and a board of directors is hiring you to lead the organization. But there are also people who lead by example, who have no titles. And then of course, there are people who are supervisors and managers of departments, who also have leadership responsibilities along with their management title. So I like to think of leadership is distributed in the organization. And people who are leaders show other people by example, what psychological safety is. And it’s simple things like asking people what they think, and respectfully listening to them, because that draws people forward and makes them feel that their ideas matter. It also includes admitting mistakes and being open and honest with people because that makes it psychologically safer for other people to admit mistakes, and not feel defensive or ashamed. Because mistakes can teach us so much. And they can teach other people in the organization who then don’t have to make the same mistake. So you need a mistake, friendly environment to grow psychological safety. And that starts with a leader. There was a person in a leadership position in an organization that I read an interview with him in a book and he said the four most important words that any leader can say are “I screwed that up.” And then you know that that you put it on the table, other people can then see that it’s safe to put it on the table. So so those are several things that are really bread and butter, psychologically safe enhancements that can happen in organizations.

Tony Delisle  20:18

Well, I tell you what, you know, I really appreciate going back to your your definition of a leader is not a position, it’s not a title, you know, we may have positions of authority. But that doesn’t mean that people are following you. And if you’re in a position of authority, and no one’s following you, you’re not a leader, you’re just out for a walk. And that resonates with me, and many of the organizations that I’ve been in. This organization as well, as far as the organizational chart is concerned, they may not be in that position, but the work that they do, other people are resonating with them, they help to elevate their skills and their abilities, just by the mere fact of their talents, their commitment, the values that they embrace, along the way, really lift other boats up, so to speak, in their work that they do. So I really appreciate you laying out the fact that, you know, leaders are in a position of authority, it’s the way you conduct yourself and the values that you have, and it’s your influence on other people. The other piece of what you said that really resonates with me is the ability to admit to mistakes, you know, I find that people in positions of authority often, and I’m not excluded from this have egos and the ego can be a very bad thing. And people that tend to be a egoic, do not like to admit mistakes, will try to either cover them up or push them off on other people and, and that can just be a real inhibitor to the organization. Again, it can be a teachable moment, it can show humility, from a leader to say, hey, like you said, I screwed this up. And this is how I screwed this up. And, and then ask other people like you were kind of saying before, you know, don’t come in there thinking you’re the know it all, the collective wisdom of the group can be very valuable. And to being a good listener and active listener, not just throwing out your opinions, but actually really hearing out what people have to say, is, is an integral part of that and recovering from mistakes where we do screw it up. I think it was Nelson Mandela that said, don’t measure me on the number of times that I’ve succeeded, but rather on the number of times that I have failed, and gotten back up again, you know, I just think that’s a that’s a huge thing is to have a mistake free environment to where those aren’t necessarily mistakes, if we learn from them, they’re lessons. So that definitely resonates with me in terms of that.

Mark Bennett  22:43

So I wanted I gave you one four word statement that any leader can say that build psychological safety, I screwed that up. And another one is, I need your help. Which is the person who’s not a no at all, but is a servant leader. And, and is working really, even though there’s a hierarchy is working on a horizontal level with people side by side. And I think that really hardens people, and shows people their value and their necessity in the organization. One other thing, before we leave psychological safety, I want to add that a that a leader can leader can do is really show a full commitment to the guiding values and principles and then be open and transparent with people about decision making. Because that’s a quality of integrity. And when people know an environment is an ethical, integrity filled environment that raises the level of psychological safety. That’s one last thing that I would add. Finally, Tony, I’m thinking about leadership, I like to say there are leaders, those are the people with the titles, and then there are those who lead. And unfortunately, there are more than a few leaders in our society and all different kinds of organizations who are not real leaders, they have the titles and the authority. They may think of themselves as leaders, but they’re not true leading us. They’re missing these other elements. And yet there are also people without any titles who show up and are good examples of being good teammates and collaborators and moral examples with the way they treat other people their reading.

Tony Delisle  24:24

You know, one of the things that you were mentioning there is the values. And this, I don’t want to you know, get lost, you know, in terms of just like, you know, it’s commonly thrown out there. But I gotta tell you for what you did, or your work with us, as I mentioned, that’s where you started. You said like, what are your values, and it was a real look in the mirror time for us. Some of them were very evident and apparent, such as caring about people, empathy in our organization and many other human service organizations. That’s a huge part of doing the work that we do is we care about people. So boom, that was a value. Integrity, you know, Another value that we had, diversity, collaboration, like going back to the unity. And for us as an organization during these uncertain times, those values when we still don’t know the future, we can really retreat and circle the wagons around those values to provide us still with a compass during these insert, which way do we go or anything else like that this is a really good place to orient an organization. So I really appreciate the work that you did with us to really surface those values that, you know, intuitively, we knew were there. But until you helped to guide us in having a conversation to really crystallize those values. You know, I’m just very thankful that we did the work with you, ahead of the pandemic, and social unrest, and political unrest, and an acceleration of technology and environment and all these other kinds of things. Because this is allowing our organization to really circle the wagons around these core values that we have, even though we might not know exactly where the boat may take us. Due to these external forces, we have those internal values to provide us that compass.

Mark Bennett  26:09

Well, your organization’s experience has been confirmed for me many other times, which is why I don’t have any lack of confidence about I can’t insist with my clients, but I can strongly encourage them before they want to jump into strategy and problem solving, to take a step back, and really make sure their underlying value structure is clear, well defined, and strong and shared by the people who are sitting around this table trying to plan for the future. One of the things I might say about that is the values are usually stated as nouns like collaboration and integrity, or quality. And they’re single words, the values will not come alive as a noun, because they may mean too many different things to different people. So each one of those nouns needs to be succinctly and carefully defined. And then you need some verbs underneath it about the kind of activities and action commitments that you’re going to follow, that are going to breathe life into those big words of caring, and excellence, and quality and integrity. They only come alive in the doing. And so one of the things I began to push my clients harder on is not just getting the list of nouns, and even getting the list of definitions, but really working with a statement of one of those action commitments that are going to help them breathe life into the nouns. How will people see it? How will they know that we really do believe this not just that we say we believe it, but what does it look like in action. And that’s why the subtitle of my second book was values in action. I was interested in decision making and how people take those values and put them into action when they have to make a tough decision. In other words, we know what the talk is, but what’s the walk? and difficult decisions really put that question to organizations because they can’t do everything they’d like to do, the choices are hard. And therefore, that’s where you want your values right there in the middle of the table, when you’re really trying to wrestle with what’s the right thing to do, our values are going to show us what the right thing to do is in this situation.

Tony Delisle  28:23

I agree when you when you helped us craft our five values, and you had us work to identify three action principles that accompany each of those five values. I think that’s what really gave us had made those values come alive. Like they just weren’t a noun, that they actually had the the verb the action to follow that up. And again, a such a centerpiece for strategic planning that you did with us. So as far as leadership, we’re talking about leadership and you know, leaders, what do you see the role as leaders in supporting their staff, and organizations during moving forward during these these trying times these uncertain times? What is the what is our role in being able to support our staff and the organization in moving forward? 

Mark Bennett  29:13

Well let’s start with a with a maybe self evident word, but your role is critical. More than ever, in these times, the leader needs to be in this place where he or she can really support people and connect with people and bring them back to the values really, really help people know that you’re within this structure of values and ethics here in this organization and psychological safety, and that we need everybody now more than ever so much so. So it’s more than a cheerleader role. You know, the leader needs to instill with the force of his or her conviction of belief that I don’t know how We’re going to get through this. But I do know that we’re going to do it by sticking together, and helping choreograph the kind of collaboration in teams, helping thing your virtual teams really think about how they keep their communication, and engagement with each other strong. So that there’s enough trust and creativity in those teams to really problem solve and break through some of the challenges that are going to be on the organization’s plate. One of the things I will say, Tony, because I coach leaders individually, and then I work with leaders as I have with you, where I’m working with you, with your board or you with your leadership team. I think there’s an extra level of stress on leaders because of the amount of demand that the organization places on them to help everybody stick together. And so I’m a great believer in leaders like you making sure that your self care program is strong to get through these times. Because you know, you need to be healthy. And you need to be able to project this life force of conviction, and we’re going to figure it out together, you’ve got to be honest with people, which means we don’t know exactly how we’re going to figure this budget cut out. But we do know that the way to do it is to get collective intelligence involved and work together and make sure everybody is contributing to sacrifice of sacrifices needed, you know, with severe budget cutbacks or something like that. So that those are a few my top of my thoughts about leaders, I think they need to be able to show up wherever they’re needed in the organization and project this sense of confidence, but not out of arrogance or or overconfidence, but confidence in belief in the values in the organization and the we that are going to get us through.

Tony Delisle  31:47

That definitely resonates with me on many levels. Starting out with where you kind of were taking us there was the self care in leadership development and trainings and other areas in entrepreneurship, there’s a lot of attention on making sure that you have the energy to be able to do this work, it takes a lot of energy, whether it’s physical energy, mental energy and emotional energy, and how do we take care of those things? And how do we make sure that we have the right energy? Well, it’s you know, the the basics sometimes, you know, it’s, are we eating healthy? Are we getting enough sleep, are we being physically active enough to help go through some of the stress that we’re going through and to be able to do the work that we’re doing and, and I look forward to this podcast, and doing more in terms of really highlighting the necessity to make sure that we have the energy and physical, mental, emotional and social health to do the work that we’re doing, especially during these trying times where there is that added layer of anxiety, and stress, and those kind of things. And when things fall on the shoulders of leaders, we need to make sure that we’re taking care of ourselves, so we can care for others. So that really does resonate with me on many levels of why we need to be doing that. But also, you know, I really feel, you know, one of the strategic goals that we have is providing a healthy work culture here. And certainly psychological safety is part of that. And I do really want to provide where people who are staff, I’m very concerned about their mental health, their their well being, during these times, beyond even their work productivity. But personally, that’s such an important piece of all of this, that I think that we’re all experiencing through this and that authenticity, like you were mentioning before, you know, being transparent about where we’re at, not knowing where we’re going to be very honest about some of those kinds of things, I think can be very helpful. And lastly, you started out again, talking about unity, and I don’t want to let that you know, to ring hollow on people. I’ve been recently thinking about USA, the “U” is united. And that old cliche about united we stand divided we fall. I think about that all the time now, but especially during these times where it does seem that there’s more division than ever, where can we become more united together as a collective, because we do need each other. And one of the themes of this podcast is that one of the areas where we can become more united is this space, is this part of the natural human condition called disability. The fact that everybody will experience disability in some way or shape or form in their lives, whether they have a disability, whether they if they don’t have a disability, they certainly know someone that does. If they don’t have a disability, they’re likely going to get one in their life. It’s just a natural part of the human condition. That all of us no matter where we come from, where we’re born, what race or religion, etc, that we have. This is an area that we can all come together on and I’m not saying that as a as a dark thing to come to get around but is a very important thing to come together on because of all the values and virtues that come from, you know, having a disability, the strength based parts of this we can, you know, find this is a common ground, because it is something that touches all of us. So I, you know, I want to ask you in working with our organization that is centered around serving the needs of people with disabilities and, and really empowering people with disabilities to live independently. What have you learned about people with disabilities or just disabilities in general, in your work with us or in coming into the work with us. I know you’re you’re very wise and may have some thoughts to share. And, you know, would like to know that maybe some of your thoughts on on disability?

Mark Bennett  35:47

Well, I appreciate the way you’re framing this. And I just want to come back to leadership for a bit. One of the things I think leaders can do for, for people, whether that’s your consumers and people in the community, who you have to engage with, or it’s your staff internally, or it’s your board, leaders can help people frame and reframe how we’re looking at situations. And this master frame that you’re offering us is to rather than to think about disability as something that separates me from you, because you Tony have a disability and I Mark don’t have a disability, we’re really in this larger frame together, which is human being. And you know, within the human, we human, the human experience, there’s this possibility for all of us to have people we love, have to come to a disability or be born with one or for, it happened to any one of us that that can change very quickly in life. So I’m appreciating this larger frame. And I have to tell you, I’m going to share a personal experience with you because I’ve been fortunate to have good health throughout my life. And after I came back from a road trip once I was playing a game with my my oldest son. And during this game, we were running around on a playground, and I was chasing a frisbee that he threw, and I ran into the end of a teeter totter. When I was chasing the Frisbee, I didn’t see it because I was looking back over my shoulder. It caught me in the Adam’s apple in the neck, and I was disabled in terms of my ability to speak. And it sent me on a course of rehabilitation that took me over about two and a half years to complete. And I was somebody who use my voice to make a living as a speaker, you know, as a teacher, a professor, and I’m, you know, mediator. So I went from being able-bodied, to being disabled and not able to work. And I had to go through a period of time where I slowly built up my capacity to speak again, and I had to relearn how to use my damaged vocal apparatus. And I had to find people to help me with that. So one of the things that I guess that’s what started me on my deeper understanding of the nature of being able bodied versus having a disability, because I went overnight from those two different categories between them. So one of the things I’ve learned is that there’s much more that unites us in human beings than divides us. That’s a principle that really informs my work. And when people talk about their differences, one of the things I learned as a professional mediator is instead of staying focused on what we disagree about, let’s not over focus on that, let’s talk about what we agree on. And then let’s look at what we disagree about, from the point of view of what unites us or what we agree about. So that that principle is a mediator is one that I use a lot and I don’t have to be in a conflict with people to know if people are getting tense and having trouble listening to each other. I try and move them back to the common ground so that they get a run of the disagreement or the tension from that place of remembering that there’s a lot really unites us far more than we think about. And that’s true with the political divides in this country. You know, these remarkably hard categories that people think that they live in, that are blue or red, you know, or conservative or liberal. And what I know is that underneath those categories, there are tremendous Li powerful bonds of commonality and shared interests. And so I’m a great believer in the power of remembering what unites us.

Tony Delisle  40:00

I love what you said about we have more in common than we do different. I don’t know if it’s a part of human nature that we want to look more towards our differences sometime and really, you know, amplified that part of it. But I do agree with you that, you know, we all know what fear feels like, we all know what love feels like, we all know what anger feels like, or joy, or sadness, and all these different states of just what it means to be a human being. And whether you have a disability, whether you come from different races, or ethnicities, whether you identify as male or female, it just seems like these, like core human, what it means to be human is really something that can really bring us together. And as you’re saying that, you know, I don’t think look into politics is the way that we come necessarily to unite ourselves, I think we’re looking at that space somehow is like a unifying space for us. And you know, as you’re speaking about organizations and organizations really working within itself together, but as organizations have Centers for Independent Living, we’re in the service business, we’re trying to, you know, help and reach out to other people. And from what I found when working to help others, I work with people that aren’t the same, you know, ethnicity or race as I am, I’m working with people that have maybe different sexual orientations, different political affiliations, but we’re getting together, and we’re working to serve the greater good. And in that process of working and service, and together, there’s this sense of unity with one another, and belongingness, and connection. And I really feel like the space of service for the greater good, the betterment of others, is a place where we can really unify. 

Mark Bennett  41:37

I really am appreciating the sound of that. And once again, you’re reframing for our audience, you help other people see things perhaps a little bit differently, or help them see more clearly. And what you described as services, as a powerful mission force that can unite people is really important, because in the wise planning work that I did was CIL,  after you get the values, then you turn to the mission statement. What is our fundamental purpose for existence that unites us in this common cause? And the CIL mission is deeply connected to the service imperative. There are people there who need our help, our job is to serve them, to really help them and empower them and encourage them and and help them be adequately resourced so that they can live independent lives. And so they’re not there’s nothing like a noble mission to be a galvanizing force to pull people together. And then the other thing that comes from that, that I did work with your organization also is then you want a vision out there on the horizon that everybody can point towards together that like the mission sort of pushes you forward, you know, you know, you want to go there, and the vision pulls you to a particular place that you want to get to together. And then you have to create the goals and objectives and the hard work to close that gap between where you are now and where you end up in a couple of years. 

Tony Delisle  42:25

And that’s what’s really helped our organization out with the planning that you did with us the wise planning was that we tend to have a vision that there is no finish line to, you know, we want to empower all people with disabilities everywhere to live independently. And that is a noble mission, as our other missions, for instance, Dr. Martin Luther King who basically saw a world where all people, no matter what race, where you came from, coming together, peacefully collectively together. I’m not sure there’s a finish line to that kind of work and when you helped us create these, what you call horizon visions, that we could actually see perhaps, you know, achieving, getting to a place but it’s very helpful to chunk that out because I think sometimes, you know, it can be disheartening when we have these no finish line visions that are out there that will go on and on this work long after we’re here on this planet.

Mark Bennett  44:12

Right, I have found out early in my work that is important is those powerful, what I call permanent visions or enduring visions are about making the world a different place more peaceful, more fair, more just that I found that this horizon vision where people could get line of sight from where they are now imagine even if it’s a stretch, we could get there together you know, we need we need more money than we have now. Or you know, we were going to need some resources. We don’t know where we’re going to get those resources but but it’s a stretch worth making. And that in that horizon vision lies on a line of sight over the horizon to the permanent vision that’s far over a few more mountain ranges down you know, down in the future. So yes, I I’ve come to be a deep believer in people’s ability to imagine together and, and that that that has a power that will pull the organization forward to that point. And I want to quote here, the apple founder Steve Jobs, he said, if you really care about what you do, if you’re passionate about what you do, you don’t have to be pushed forward, the vision, will pull you forward. But that vision needs to be clear enough and vivid enough that it’s meaningful to pull us towards it. And the permanent Big Vision perhaps never get there vision doesn’t have that same pulling forward as, as a horizon vision.

Tony Delisle  45:40

You’re right, it could feel almost overwhelming, it can almost be disheartening, you know, in a way like, like, Oh my gosh, the work is never done, which it never is. But at the same time, if we, if we can have like it chunked out into these more digestible spaces, you know, it allows I think, us as human beings to get our brain around, okay, that is achievable. And it’s going to give me the inertia and momentum to get there. So one of the areas that I think the key part of what you did with the work with us, is that you involved, everyone in our organization, like I said, we nearly have 35 staff, and members of our board at the time, when you work with us, everyone participated in this strategic planning process, nearly, I gotta say, 100% of the time, when I’ve been involved with strategic planning, it was so top down that process of planning and involving everybody in the organization from start to finish, and it was not finished, it’s still ongoing, there’s such a key piece of it, and it reminds me of the Eisenhower quote that you gave to us was that, you know, plans are worthless, it’s the planning, that is everything. And I gotta say that in the planning, and in working with, you know, staff, and talking through it, and getting everyone’s feedback, creating a safe space for people to give feedback, I gotta say, was one of the most unifying things that has really stuck with our organization where people feel more included. So I wanted to acknowledge you for the technique that you have in working with organizations, and allowing everybody that safe space to feel included, and to have this as a multi level approach to creating by design these things. And so that’s why I’m so eager for your next book to come out. And to dive into it, you know, Unity By Design: The Architecture of Creative Collaborations, I know it hasn’t come out yet. It’s winter 2021. But I didn’t know if you were able, or if it was top secret, or anything else like that, if you would want to give us any kind of teasers about the book, and anything that you would want to share about this book that’s coming out that really does have to do with the heart of our conversation here. Unity, collaboration.

47:53

Yeah, I’d be happy to Tony, by the way, the title is a little bit different than then you mentioned I the first word is “Uniting”. It’s not unity. And I chose that I started, I started with the book being called united by design. And then I thought, well, the United States says it’s united, but it isn’t very united. So calling something united doesn’t really cut it, because it’s a, it’s a fixed state. And uniting is an ongoing process. So I like the the verb form, to convey the ongoing work that uniting is always in process. And it’s that attention to it, by design that is going to make make an organization more effective together. So the book at its heart is about the adaptive capacity principle that goes back to that national laboratory and what the future is said that you can’t predict the future, but you can enable it. And so leaders need to be catalysts for this adapting capacity in adaptive capacity inside the organization. And what I do in the book is I break it down into seven things that are part of the architecture of uniting by design, and four of them are core practices. The first core practice is dialogue, which is this deep learning based conversation that happens throughout the organization. It’s not top down. It’s like it’s including everybody, and that’s what I did with the planning process was create a dialogue to get everybody engaged and nobody knows the answer, we’re gonna learn together. So dialogue is the foundation of everything else. So that’s what you want inside the organization is the healthy multiple sided conversations. The second is wise planning, which we’ve talked about quite a bit. The third we haven’t spoken about, but it comes out of my deep work in mediation and conflict resolution, which is a way of negotiation that’s principled, so I call it principled negotiation. We still have to hammer out disagreements and work on, you know, sometimes compromising and coming to understandings that maybe are not as satisfying for everybody as they might be. But if it’s done in a principled way, not based on power, but based on trying to make sure everybody can come out of this in a way that’s acceptable, that’s a very important Cornerstone skill. So and then the fourth is my value space decision making work where the values are in the center of the table, as I talked about, and you really use the value statement and the guiding principles to make the hard decision. So those are the four Cornerstone practices. And then the three characteristics of the organization to make the seven elements are psychological safety, which we’ve talked about, integrity, which we have talked about, because that’s the leader making value space decisions, and being honest and open. And the third, a growth mindset. And so that’s this attitude towards mistakes, that mistakes help us. We don’t, we’re not afraid of mistakes, we use mistakes for learning, not for punishment, and you know, blame, but but for learning and growth. And when people share that attitude towards mistake making, you put your foot on the accelerator of the learning velocity of the organization, you move into high gear, and everything is something that can be learned from, and I’ll come back to a Nelson Mandela quote, I like. Nelson Mandela said, I never lose, I either win, or I learn. So there’s no losses than in an organization. You know, if there’s learning that we get out of it, then we’ve got a new asset. And so you keep reframing, picking yourself up.

Tony Delisle  51:47

Well, as I mentioned earlier, every time I entered in a conversation with you, I learned and become a better version of myself, Mark, it’s, it’s amazing. And the mistake I made in the title of your book being united versus uniting, what a great springboard to really help orient myself in any of the other listeners to the very important differences between united. Oh, we’ve arrived. No, uniting, ever present ever ongoing process that we always go through. So I appreciate that. Last thing, before we leave here, one thing that has been a pleasure in getting to know you through the work that you’ve done with our organization, is that you are what I consider to be a master poet. And I didn’t know and I hate, you know, well, I don’t hate to put you on the spot. I’d love to put you on the spot. Do you have any poetry that you would want to, you know, leave us with that we could chew on either related to what we’ve been talking about or not, that you would want to share with us? And no worries? If not, but is there anything that comes to mind? 

Mark Bennett  52:52

Yeah, and I think the best poems, for most of us are very short poems. But they’re poems that go deep, and leave us with something that feels universal. So this is a poem by man named William Stafford, who’s one of my favorite poets. And his poem is called Yes. It could happen any time. Tornado, earthquake, Armageddon. It could happen. Or sunshine, love, salvation. It could you know, that’s why we wake and look out. No guarantees in this life. But some bonuses, like morning, like right now, like noon, like evening.

Tony Delisle  53:49

Mark Bennett. This is in resources incorporated facilitator, Master poet, my friend. Thank you so much. I am honored that you are our first interview for this series that we’re doing that explores people’s perspectives, and allows us to be empowered to be the best version of ourselves imaginable so that we can go onward and upward in the service to others. Thank you, my friend.

Mark Bennett  54:20

Thank you sir.

Amy Feutz  54:23

Thanks for listening to The Independent Life podcast brought to you by the Center for Independent Living of North Central Florida. If you like what you hear, please rate review and subscribe. And if you know anyone who might benefit from listening, share this podcast and invite them to subscribe to for questions, suggestions, or if you have a story you’d like to share, please email us at cilncf@gmail.com or call us at 352-378-7474. Thanks for joining us. Until next time, support, advocate and empower each other to live The independent life.